minimum wage would hardly be for fresh graduates. it's usually to protect the segments of jobs that are deemed "low-skilled". that said, doesn't progressive wage do the same thing. wheels are in motion for the cleaning sector to start at $1K minimum.
Will minimum wage laws work here?
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minimum wage would hardly be for fresh graduates. it's usually to protect the segments of jobs that are deemed "low-skilled". that said, doesn't progressive wage do the same thing. wheels are in motion for the cleaning sector to start at $1K minimum.
Jarlaxle
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Minimum wage issues
i am not sure why there are so many ppl in singapore asking for minimum wage.
i really dun see the benefits in long run.
1) people may initially be more happy as they received a statutory pay rise. but prices will go up as these employees are also input cost to the goods.
furthermore, there are so much multipliers to the price we pay. (gst, corporate tax, or other duties)
assuming 1:1 increment for labor cost vs price.
a $1 dollar increase in labor wage constitutes a $1.07 increment! i know ppl will say that the 1 dollar increment will be averaged across all sales. but as a society, we lost 7 cents to the government.
over time, the prices on all goods and services will catch up. and ppl on minimum wage will be back to the same situation. thus needing another minimum wage revision.
2) the initial shock from the pay revision will likely to bring inflation to a higher level. so price increase will be driven by DEMAND AND SUPPLY sides.
and unlikely to cease after that.
3) companies will start to increase technological investment and hope to go into 100% automation.
from the company and technological standpoint, this is great!
but who is going to bear the social cost of irrelevant/retrenched workers?
even public service is cutting down on lower skilled workers. with all the electronic applications and automation. they juz stopped hiring A/O level ppl for admin roles.
a quick check at careers.gov.sg, theres only 2 pages of job listing for A/O level. 7 pages of job for diploma and more than 10 pages for degree holders.
lets face it, every country will hv the lowest level form of workers who
command a low pay.
how are they going to feed themselves or pay for their house loan or rental?
4) Non profit and govt will reduce subsidies in the "perceived" benefit of minimum wage implementation ?
"since u all already got pay increment mah, i can cut my budget liao"
yet another cost transfer happening here!
i believe in subsidising the low income group rather than minimum wage.
minimum wage seems to give a short run of benefits only.
i am not sure why there are so many ppl in singapore asking for minimum wage.
i really dun see the benefits in long run.
1) people may initially be more happy as they received a statutory pay rise. but prices will go up as these employees are also input cost to the goods.
furthermore, there are so much multipliers to the price we pay. (gst, corporate tax, or other duties)
assuming 1:1 increment for labor cost vs price.
a $1 dollar increase in labor wage constitutes a $1.07 increment! i know ppl will say that the 1 dollar increment will be averaged across all sales. but as a society, we lost 7 cents to the government.
over time, the prices on all goods and services will catch up. and ppl on minimum wage will be back to the same situation. thus needing another minimum wage revision.
2) the initial shock from the pay revision will likely to bring inflation to a higher level. so price increase will be driven by DEMAND AND SUPPLY sides.
and unlikely to cease after that.
3) companies will start to increase technological investment and hope to go into 100% automation.
from the company and technological standpoint, this is great!
but who is going to bear the social cost of irrelevant/retrenched workers?
even public service is cutting down on lower skilled workers. with all the electronic applications and automation. they juz stopped hiring A/O level ppl for admin roles.
a quick check at careers.gov.sg, theres only 2 pages of job listing for A/O level. 7 pages of job for diploma and more than 10 pages for degree holders.
lets face it, every country will hv the lowest level form of workers who
command a low pay.
how are they going to feed themselves or pay for their house loan or rental?
4) Non profit and govt will reduce subsidies in the "perceived" benefit of minimum wage implementation ?
"since u all already got pay increment mah, i can cut my budget liao"
yet another cost transfer happening here!
i believe in subsidising the low income group rather than minimum wage.
minimum wage seems to give a short run of benefits only.
Personally, I think mandating a minimum wage may lead to abuses by the employers. Why?
Employers might be tempted to keep low wage workers at the minimum wage, instead of paying them for what they are worth (e.g fair wage, rather than minimum wage).
Employers might be tempted to keep low wage workers at the minimum wage, instead of paying them for what they are worth (e.g fair wage, rather than minimum wage).
If employers are known to pay fair wages, then there wouldnt be a need for minimum wages.
Haiz...
Ok. Lets check the facts.
We do not have minimum wages. Do we have inflation? Yes?
Since wage cost lag behind inflation, wage is not the largest contributing factor to inflation. Hence, any increase in wage as a result of minimum wage will lead a small increase in inflation.
But is the overall welfare of the workers protected? Yes. Because now they know if they work, they will be protected against inflation.
Even if company build machines to automate the production line, someone is still need to repair and maintaint the machines. hence, lower skilled jobs are replaced by higher skilled jobs. Labour can get training to work on higher skilled better value jobs instead. Hence, minimum wages in your example, will lead to an increase in worker's welfare.
wrong survey for the wrong result.
Your survey can only proof fewer A/O level holders are needed at this moment of time. Not why fewer of them is required.
Hence, with minimum wage, these workers can be assured that their pay will keep pace with the inflation and result in an improvement in their ability to feed themselves. An improvement in their welfare.
ok. noted. So to keep welfare payout, lets make sure people get such a low wage that they cannot survive and must depend on handsout.
money from the govt comes from tax payers. Since there is gst in singapore, even the low income pay tax. Minimum wage will help the low income get more pay.
So whats the benefit of subsidising the low income? Why do you believe in it? Not saying means your beliefs wouldnt be challenged, is it?
Ok. Lets check the facts.
We do not have minimum wages. Do we have inflation? Yes?
Since wage cost lag behind inflation, wage is not the largest contributing factor to inflation. Hence, any increase in wage as a result of minimum wage will lead a small increase in inflation.
But is the overall welfare of the workers protected? Yes. Because now they know if they work, they will be protected against inflation.
Even if company build machines to automate the production line, someone is still need to repair and maintaint the machines. hence, lower skilled jobs are replaced by higher skilled jobs. Labour can get training to work on higher skilled better value jobs instead. Hence, minimum wages in your example, will lead to an increase in worker's welfare.
wrong survey for the wrong result.
Your survey can only proof fewer A/O level holders are needed at this moment of time. Not why fewer of them is required.
Hence, with minimum wage, these workers can be assured that their pay will keep pace with the inflation and result in an improvement in their ability to feed themselves. An improvement in their welfare.
ok. noted. So to keep welfare payout, lets make sure people get such a low wage that they cannot survive and must depend on handsout.
money from the govt comes from tax payers. Since there is gst in singapore, even the low income pay tax. Minimum wage will help the low income get more pay.
So whats the benefit of subsidising the low income? Why do you believe in it? Not saying means your beliefs wouldnt be challenged, is it?
Yes, but my point whether is minimum wage the right tool to solve this problem of unfair wages.
What is to stop a employer from paying just the minimum wage? Basically, instead of looking at it as a potential gap up from existing, can it be used by the employer to pay the minimum possible when the person can be due more?
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First we must decide what do we want. then take a look at what is happening without min wage. Then compare to what is likely to happen with min wage. Decide whether min wage meets the objective we want.
What do I want? fair wages for workers.
What is happening without min wage? no fair wages for the low income.
What is likely to happen with min wages?
A) wages moves up to fair level. low income Worker's welfare improves.
B) wages move up but not to fair level because min wage is set too low. low income Worker's welfare improves a little.
Does min wage meets the objective I want? If A happens, great! If B happens, not too bad.
So either way, min wage is better then no min wage for the low income workers.
We must always remember, if an employer will exploit the min wage to pay less than fair wages, then it is likely the employer is paying less than fair wages without min wage.
So even if the employer exploit the min wage by paying less then fair wages, worker's welfare is still likely to improve after the min wage, because the worker is getting a pay increase.
I would rather penalize the employer and force them to pay fair wages (which maybe several times the minimum wage) than just accepting 'good enough', thus short changing them.
Why accept minimum when you should press for more (or fair depends on how u look at it)?
I agree. But to be realistic, if it is possible to make them pay fair wage, then why is anyone talking about min wage?
The talk about "fair wage" is blinding some (not a dig at you) from the fact that employers will never pay fair wages. The call for fair wages is to distract from the fact that min wage is more achievable realistically.
So why not a min wage now and a fair wage later?
Jarlaxle
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yup, u r right.
the problem is u will lose a lot more low skilled labor than the technicians u will hire.
the net change is likely to be negative even with retraining.
a machine can replace 10 ppl easily but i may not need more than 2 technicians.
it doesnt matter if this is a result of automation or tech.
if this trend persists, it just mean low skill workers are going to have less and less opportunities.
anyway, im speaking from exp. did business analysis n process improvement for them b4.
minimum wage has to keep revising lor.
yup, still gotta rely on that.
yeah tax from anywhere. casino levy also can. lol
by not having minimum wage, there will be less unemployed low skilled workers who are rendered irrelevant due to technology or hr cost point of view. will create better life for those who still get a job (for awhile) but worsen the life of those who dun retain their jobs.
subsidising those are who still employed ensure that they hv a job and dun hv to deal unemployment.
Jarlaxle
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but yeah, i tink u some of u r right.
viewing from different perspectives will give u diff priorities.
fair wage vs unfair wage
my point of consideration is more towards
more ppl employed with fair wage and more ppl unemployed vs everyone is employed with underpaid situation.
imo i tink its better to hv less bread for every family than no bread for 1 families while 9 families got more bread.
of coz if everyone can get 1 loaf! lol i dun mind either
viewing from different perspectives will give u diff priorities.
fair wage vs unfair wage
my point of consideration is more towards
more ppl employed with fair wage and more ppl unemployed vs everyone is employed with underpaid situation.
imo i tink its better to hv less bread for every family than no bread for 1 families while 9 families got more bread.
of coz if everyone can get 1 loaf! lol i dun mind either
There are so many countries with minimum wages, in fact the vast majority has some form of minimum wages.
Do you have some evidence or examples of "employers paying just the minimum wage"? And do your examples, if any, represent the rule or exceptions?
Underling your assertion is that employees were paid more the minimum wage before the implementation of the minimum wage.
If you don't have the facts, then it's just wild speculation on your part, fun but still unsubstantiated.
It is a thought experiment 
But if you are wondering, yes, my views are somewhat influenced by Hong Kong's experience with Statutory Minimum Wage which was implemented in July 2010. The pros and cons are well covered by both ends of the political spectrum [1], and the results of SMW have been measured as well by Legco [2].
IT seems to be a mixed bag. While there is an overall improvement in household incomes, nett nett, employers found ways to squeeze more out of workers by reducing rest days.
[1]http://www.hkdf.org/pr.asp?func=show&pr=207
[2]http://www.legco.gov.hk/yr11-12/english/panels/mp/papers/mp0529cb2-1960-2-e.pdf
[3]http://www.scmp.com/comment/insight-opinion/article/1048950/minimum-wage-balancing-act-between-poor-and-free-enterprise
But if you are wondering, yes, my views are somewhat influenced by Hong Kong's experience with Statutory Minimum Wage which was implemented in July 2010. The pros and cons are well covered by both ends of the political spectrum [1], and the results of SMW have been measured as well by Legco [2].
IT seems to be a mixed bag. While there is an overall improvement in household incomes, nett nett, employers found ways to squeeze more out of workers by reducing rest days.
[1]http://www.hkdf.org/pr.asp?func=show&pr=207
[2]http://www.legco.gov.hk/yr11-12/english/panels/mp/papers/mp0529cb2-1960-2-e.pdf
[3]http://www.scmp.com/comment/insight-opinion/article/1048950/minimum-wage-balancing-act-between-poor-and-free-enterprise
but yeah, i tink u some of u r right.
viewing from different perspectives will give u diff priorities.
fair wage vs unfair wage
my point of consideration is more towards
more ppl employed with fair wage and more ppl unemployed vs everyone is employed with underpaid situation.
imo i tink its better to hv less bread for every family than no bread for 1 families while 9 families got more bread.
of coz if everyone can get 1 loaf! lol i dun mind either
lol that is something that is not happening. even in manufacturing sector, only the production lines can do that. those at the office doing the paperwork could be more siong.
besides, a minimal wage is not like those angmoh countries organising strikes for unrealistic wage that resulted in less employment. plz do not put them together and compare. one is being able to survive, the other is just threatening investors.
MINIMUM WAGE ISSUE
I am no politician and I am not politically inclined. In fact I have no voting rights as I was overseas on business most of the time and after missing the voting of the last presidential elections, I was deleted from the voting register and I had not gone about getting myself reinstated yet.
What concerns me is the minimum wage issue and the noise making on the minimum wage. I wonder how many Singaporeans that are being paid below one thousand that are being marginalized.
To me a legislation on the minimum wage of one thousand may result in the few hundred thousand families that are employing domestic workers to having to fork out a significant increment to their monthly expense for the foreign maids that they are employing and noting that there are a few hundred thousand domestic workers in Singapore. ( I do not have one anyway )
Next, with this increase in expenditure, it would only mean that the cost of living would rise and then this would be in contradictions to the claim of the rising cost of living.
So, should we forge ahead with the minimum wage demand into legislation.
Personally, I don't think we have more than 300,000 of Singaporeans that are having to be marginalized by the non existence of the minimum wage legislation.
We should be mindful of what we prescribed and shout about and not just the airing of an issue to rattle.
I am no politician and I am not politically inclined. In fact I have no voting rights as I was overseas on business most of the time and after missing the voting of the last presidential elections, I was deleted from the voting register and I had not gone about getting myself reinstated yet.
What concerns me is the minimum wage issue and the noise making on the minimum wage. I wonder how many Singaporeans that are being paid below one thousand that are being marginalized.
To me a legislation on the minimum wage of one thousand may result in the few hundred thousand families that are employing domestic workers to having to fork out a significant increment to their monthly expense for the foreign maids that they are employing and noting that there are a few hundred thousand domestic workers in Singapore. ( I do not have one anyway )
Next, with this increase in expenditure, it would only mean that the cost of living would rise and then this would be in contradictions to the claim of the rising cost of living.
So, should we forge ahead with the minimum wage demand into legislation.
Personally, I don't think we have more than 300,000 of Singaporeans that are having to be marginalized by the non existence of the minimum wage legislation.
We should be mindful of what we prescribed and shout about and not just the airing of an issue to rattle.
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tutukueh
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why minimum wage is a stupid idea
Let me put a nail to this coffin. I am sick of hearing people saying rot about how populist, myopic measures like Minimum Wage will "help the poor" or how "sinkies must help sinkies"
1. Minimum Wage is a broad net to ensure workers get a certain $ per hour.
2. This will invariably rise to cost pressures for businesses. Note that the bedrock of our economy are SMEs. With high rental fees, our businesses will be further stretched.
3. If you apply Minimum Wage to all, even Foreign Workers will be entitled to it. We simply cannot afford it.. Do you want your healthcare costs to further spike? A large part of healthcare workforce comes from 3rd world countries.
4. If you apply Minimum Wage to only Singaporeans, employers will be forced to either employ even Foreigners or resort to some form of automation (not billion dollar Robots)
5. Our country is small, with no natural resources. We survive because of our competitive edge. Minimum Wage wipes off that form of competitiveness.
6. Minimum Wage should not be the target of our generation.. If you are already earning "minimum wage", you should further upgrade your skills / qualifications to earn more than that.
7. " but it helps the poor". This argument holds no water. If you want to help the destitute (eg, family with disabled adults and young schooling children), applying broad minimum wage results in very little direct financial assistance to the intended family. What you should do is have higher taxes for people like Gerald Giam and offer direct subsidies / handouts for families via means testing.
8. Minimum Wage is an extremely myopic but populist campaign topic. It has been used ad nauseum overseas.
9. We are not a resource rich state like Scandinavia or Australia. We simply cannot afford to have minimum wage and YET survive when our ASEAN neighbors are clawing ahead.
10. Before someone kpkb say only PAP ibs put down minimum wage, I am a WP supporter in aljunied for the longest time but I have faith WP core cadre will not support this stupid Gerald Giam's lofty dreams.
Sent from yo momma using GAGT
Let me put a nail to this coffin. I am sick of hearing people saying rot about how populist, myopic measures like Minimum Wage will "help the poor" or how "sinkies must help sinkies"
1. Minimum Wage is a broad net to ensure workers get a certain $ per hour.
2. This will invariably rise to cost pressures for businesses. Note that the bedrock of our economy are SMEs. With high rental fees, our businesses will be further stretched.
3. If you apply Minimum Wage to all, even Foreign Workers will be entitled to it. We simply cannot afford it.. Do you want your healthcare costs to further spike? A large part of healthcare workforce comes from 3rd world countries.
4. If you apply Minimum Wage to only Singaporeans, employers will be forced to either employ even Foreigners or resort to some form of automation (not billion dollar Robots)
5. Our country is small, with no natural resources. We survive because of our competitive edge. Minimum Wage wipes off that form of competitiveness.
6. Minimum Wage should not be the target of our generation.. If you are already earning "minimum wage", you should further upgrade your skills / qualifications to earn more than that.
7. " but it helps the poor". This argument holds no water. If you want to help the destitute (eg, family with disabled adults and young schooling children), applying broad minimum wage results in very little direct financial assistance to the intended family. What you should do is have higher taxes for people like Gerald Giam and offer direct subsidies / handouts for families via means testing.
8. Minimum Wage is an extremely myopic but populist campaign topic. It has been used ad nauseum overseas.
9. We are not a resource rich state like Scandinavia or Australia. We simply cannot afford to have minimum wage and YET survive when our ASEAN neighbors are clawing ahead.
10. Before someone kpkb say only PAP ibs put down minimum wage, I am a WP supporter in aljunied for the longest time but I have faith WP core cadre will not support this stupid Gerald Giam's lofty dreams.
Sent from yo momma using GAGT
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