jogging and motivation thread

[sph777]

I was wondering running at 4 am

Would it be much better.

I run at 4am it's much less traffic and much cooler. Just must be careful on roads

 

[Ender]

Last week long run, 11.68km, avg. HR 172, 4.53 min/km > 0.52 min watch stop



This week long run, 14.14km, avg. HR 169, 4.50 min/km > 1.22 min watch stop



@Ender

Since you're a results oriented person, how come my avg. HR can drop when I run longer and faster? Same shoes, same route.

Your HR profile between the two runs are vastly different. Can't have a fair comparison. If just going by reading your HR profile, I would have guess your are doing different workout. You also need to explain why the sudden rise in HR just before 4km mark in the first profile, and then then 2nd spike and 3rd spike. Farlek? or cadence lock?

Anyway, not talking about your two runs, two different days workout can have different HR, due to form and weather factors, but ball park is there. Here's my two runs only a week apart. Its the same steady state Pace assigned by TAO, but different HR, even though it still steady state HR. I can only say my one with 139 HR was just a bad day. Both distance and route the same. I can compare these two runs, coz of the steady state nature profile. Maybe I have improved? Need more repeated results to confirm that, but since the HR profile is similar, they are comparable if the workout are the same.




To judge a average of a HR, try to use the steady state portion of the run to judge if that was a good run or wanting to compare to another older runs. Those HR that shoot up one moment, climb down another moment, averaging them out is not going to compare well with another that don't follow the same profile.

 

[Ender]

But if almost everyone in this thread is affected by it and also national triathlete (not for me because I am heat adapted as you can see from my long run times), then you probably have to question what you mentioned.

Enlighten please, what I have mentioned? is it about cardiac drift? I don't disagree with cardiac drift. I experience it too. But my drift starts earlier than before compare to last time. Just different strategy when dealing with drift. In most low HR training, is to keep HR constant and when the drift occurs, lower the pace. If lowering the pace to walking doesn't lower HR, then the training has become too hard. Coz there another matter of taking note how fast your HR recover, if it doesn't recover from lowering pace, might be a sign of pushing too hard. By right during easy run, your HR should be manageable. Unlike hard training, for e.g a good Interval training, your HR recovery will not drop to your easy pace HR after that workout as it is hard.

If you see my two plot above, my HR is actually climbing later. But I was employing pace base training of TAO. So I was keeping pace, by allowing my HR to rise. I am not against pace base training if that what you trying to say, coz now my training are all pace based. Neither am I against HR base training or RPE base. You choose your medicine. Maybe I have been talking about the HR base protocol? Well if I am into a protocol, I try to stick to it. Like once I was into 80/20 polarise training. I strictly don't do grey zone running zone 3 or 4. No threshold, no tempo. But that was short lived when I started periodize training for a 17 week marathon. When I was on MAF, I was strictly on MAF HR base training, no training above 128 bpm. I adhere strictly to it. SO when I talk about a protocol, it will sound strict, coz I will follow strictly, but that doesn't mean I am against other, coz mostly likely I have tried those as well.

 

[Kuudere]

Oh....actually i dont really take in water during the runs unless if it's long runs. Coz feel that the absorption is pretty slow....for hard efforts confirm just sit in the stomach slosh around nia.

Im talking about parking my bike at one spot and then i run to and fro straight lines and then run past it and splash the small cups of chilled ice-slushies or re-wet the ubiquitous 100-plus towel ( ) with the chilled water.
It has to be chilled water or ice-slushie for me, not just water.

For ice-slushie i first put it near the vents of the bottom compartment of the fridge so thatit gets to around 2-4 deg C. Then when i each home i place it into the freezer, it freezes partially after like 2 hours and i just shake it. Then i cycle to ME or GBTB, the 2 spots having straight paths and open skyline for the 3/5/10k "TTs" (during CNY period i tried some 1.6K as well).
Side story : Actually coz it's all straight lines if i do @ Marina area, I dont feel that the GPS of my Huawei kena any substantial "cutting corner" effects, other than a small bit at each u-turn at the end of the straight paths but it does not vary wildly vs the Goggle Map measurements.

You can try testing it on track, put your bottle at one corner cool yourself down from time to time

Your HR profile between the two runs are vastly different. Can't have a fair comparison. If just going by reading your HR profile, I would have guess your are doing different workout. You also need to explain why the sudden rise in HR just before 4km mark in the first profile, and then then 2nd spike and 3rd spike. Farlek? or cadence lock?

Anyway, not talking about your two runs, two different days workout can have different HR, due to form and weather factors, but ball park is there. Here's my two runs only a week apart. Its the same steady state Pace assigned by TAO, but different HR, even though it still steady state HR. I can only say my one with 139 HR was just a bad day. Both distance and route the same. I can compare these two runs, coz of the steady state nature profile. Maybe I have improved? Need more repeated results to confirm that, but since the HR profile is similar, they are comparable if the workout are the same.




To judge a average of a HR, try to use the steady state portion of the run to judge if that was a good run or wanting to compare to another older runs. Those HR that shoot up one moment, climb down another moment, averaging them out is not going to compare well with another that don't follow the same profile.

Yes, it's a different workout but it was harder, I was doing 3k easy, 5k steady, 6k HMP. I usually go for harder workout compared to the previous week, to see if I can improve on that. For that run, I tweaked my strategy and then run longer and faster.

I managed to run faster at a longer distance, not having to exert as hard. And I think I can still improve on that, since it's a work in progress.

First 3km: 5.20
Mid 5km: 4.55
Last 6.14km: 4.32

From a comparison standpoint, it's definitely not as exact as what you are getting at. But I want to keep tweaking the strategy to optimise it to be more efficient and also injury-free.

Enlighten please, what I have mentioned? is it about cardiac drift? I don't disagree with cardiac drift. I experience it too. But my drift starts earlier than before compare to last time. Just different strategy when dealing with drift. In most low HR training, is to keep HR constant and when the drift occurs, lower the pace. If lowering the pace to walking doesn't lower HR, then the training has become too hard. Coz there another matter of taking note how fast your HR recover, if it doesn't recover from lowering pace, might be a sign of pushing too hard. By right during easy run, your HR should be manageable. Unlike hard training, for e.g a good Interval training, your HR recovery will not drop to your easy pace HR after that workout as it is hard.

If you see my two plot above, my HR is actually climbing later. But I was employing pace base training of TAO. So I was keeping pace, by allowing my HR to rise. I am not against pace base training if that what you trying to say, coz now my training are all pace based. Neither am I against HR base training.

I am more concerned with heat and recovery runs. Not really on cardiac drift. The avg. HR is a lot higher during recovery runs because of the heat. I believe that slowing down is important but it shouldn't come at the expense of changing running form too much. Most of the times, I just go with vdot/macmillian calculator for recovery pace at the slower end of it. This would still give me 150+ avg. HR because of the heat. During the run, I could still run at conversational pace with my sibling. The national triathlete, Aaron Lee went from threadmill running with air con at 125 avg. HR to 153 avg. HR, despite slowing down his pace 5.27 > 6.07.

At the end of the day, what matters is that my legs are not feeling too fatigue after the easy run. And it serves that purpose even though I am running at 150 avg. HR, which isn't considered as easy by the watch. If this was the case and I have been doing this for weeks, I will be injured by now for going too hard continuously for my easy runs.

 

[ctan84]

Aiyah cardiac drift issue again. This one we all have to accept its a pain in the ass when running in a tropical climate and as such, training that's HR focused becomes very limited use. I am of the stand that HR zones are only useful in 2 settings: 1) recovery / easy run where the focus is not to over-strain & 2) high intensity work whereby you really want to ensure you are pushing hard enough for the benefits.

Everything else HR zones are quite pointless liao coz you need to remember the runner needs 2 types of adaptations to improve performance: central (cardiac) & peripheral (muscle). If you go by HR zones and keep dropping pace to try to drop the HR readings coz of drift, you peripheral working muscles (legs in this case) are not getting the stress they need from a higher speed. Over time, you can end up in a situation whereby you won't be able to hold the speed you desire over the required distance liao coz of the lack of peripheral adaptation or what we call "muscular endurance".

Then there's a group of pple with medical conditions where HR training is totally useless. I recall during @zeroX26's class he said b4 that he has beta thalassemia (not enough red blood cells), so if he were to obey HR training zones, his moderate intensity will forever be limited to brisk walking liao.

 

[WussRedXLi]

So can take HR less into account if I've been running for awhile (due to cardiac drift) and just care about the perceived effort instead?
Nowadays I just run fixed 1hr, try to maintain below MAF as much as possible. If cannot then at least as low as possible. Cos some of the days I run in the morning before WFH, no choice have to exceed MAF to make it back home in time.

One thing that differs from person to person is heat acclimatisation, only you as the stakeholder can answer that i guess. It's not going to be factored in by your training program or your smartwatch.

The perceived effort (ie RPE) for gauging zone 2 can also be somewhat gauged by trying to speak/sing.
See if you can complete a 10-15 word sentence if your HR is elevated on a warm day.

Alternatively, what you can also do now is also to try easy running in a gym, best if there is a fan. I used to do that when the company gym was available to me, in fact 1 standing fan and 1 floor fan. lol Temperature pretty cold there, 20 deg C RH low 50s% according to the wall thermo/hygrometer.
You can then also solidify what RPE at Zone 2 feels like, so that you can then run on warm days (evenings like 6.30pm?) and see if you can form any relationship with regards to this cardiac drift.


Or just do it my wah lah, use chilled water and ice slushies, that 100 plus towel that you get from local races,
Coz ultimately whichever way you and I and anyone here cuts it, the high heat index warm weather is here for most parts of the year. LLST, we live here where it is warm and humid, ie high heat index.
For me i would never be able to run below 4.00 pace for more than that first few km if not for active cooling.....eg my MHR is around 180 (i measured 182 before, once), then i am already hitting like mid 170s past a certain km mark at say "just" 4.00-4.15, then push simi?

 

[Ender]

Aiyah cardiac drift issue again. This one we all have to accept its a pain in the ass when running in a tropical climate and as such, training that's HR focused becomes very limited use. I am of the stand that HR zones are only useful in 2 settings: 1) recovery / easy run where the focus is not to over-strain & 2) high intensity work whereby you really want to ensure you are pushing hard enough for the benefits.

Everything else HR zones are quite pointless liao coz you need to remember the runner needs 2 types of adaptations to improve performance: central (cardiac) & peripheral (muscle). If you go by HR zones and keep dropping pace to try to drop the HR readings coz of drift, you peripheral working muscles (legs in this case) are not getting the stress they need from a higher speed. Over time, you can end up in a situation whereby you won't be able to hold the speed you desire over the required distance liao coz of the lack of peripheral adaptation or what we call "muscular endurance".

Then there's a group of pple with medical conditions where HR training is totally useless. I recall during @zeroX26's class he said b4 that he has beta thalassemia (not enough red blood cells), so if he were to obey HR training zones, his moderate intensity will forever be limited to brisk walking liao.

I think time to time, brings up for discussion is great. I guess that is why marathon training programme are a combination of everything and largely pace base. With long runs to include MP pace for a portion of the run.

HR training has it limitation, but their philosophy is rooted on being easy and high volumes. So it not the best training programmed for marathon HM, or 10km if timing goal is the criteria. But more me, it was mileage accumulator during the covid lock down.

 

[Irenicus91]

One thing that differs from person to person is heat acclimatisation, only you as the stakeholder can answer that i guess. It's not going to be factored in by your training program or your smartwatch.

The perceived effort (ie RPE) for gauging zone 2 can also be somewhat gauged by trying to speak/sing.
See if you can complete a 10-15 word sentence if your HR is elevated on a warm day.

Alternatively, what you can also do now is also to try easy running in a gym, best if there is a fan. I used to do that when the company gym was available to me, in fact 1 standing fan and 1 floor fan. lol Temperature pretty cold there, 20 deg C RH low 50s% according to the wall thermo/hygrometer.
You can then also solidify what RPE at Zone 2 feels like, so that you can then run on warm days (evenings like 6.30pm?) and see if you can form any relationship with regards to this cardiac drift.


Or just do it my wah lah, use chilled water and ice slushies, that 100 plus towel that you get from local races,
Coz ultimately whichever way you and I and anyone here cuts it, the high heat index warm weather is here for most parts of the year. LLST, we live here where it is warm and humid, ie high heat index.
For me i would never be able to run below 4.00 pace for more than that first few km if not for active cooling.....eg my MHR is around 180 (i measured 182 before, once), then i am already hitting like mid 170s past a certain km mark at say "just" 4.00-4.15, then push simi?

Yep, ok will try to run on treadmill in aircon room the next time I get an opportunity.

Cos I cannot tahan running on treadmill, scenery never change I will get very bored. So far all my runs are done outdoors. But think need to run on it once in awhile to track my progress.

 

[ctan84]

I think time to time, brings up for discussion is great. I guess that is why marathon training programme are a combination of everything and largely pace base. With long runs to include MP pace for a portion of the run.

HR training has it limitation, but their philosophy is rooted on being easy and high volumes. So it not the best training programmed for marathon HM, or 10km if timing goal is the criteria. But more me, it was mileage accumulator during the covid lock down.

My approach to training is quite straight-forward one - the runner just need to identify the main goal of each type of run, then from there you will be able to decide better to use pace or HR.

1) Easy / recovery run: The most common mistake is to go too hard when its supposed to be easy. Many runners have no issue pushing hard, but they struggle to go easy esp if its aim is to "recover" and not "stress". So this type of run use HR, not pace.

2) Long runs (esp marathon prep): The key thing you want to improve here is muscular endurance or the ability to hold a specific range of pace for as long a distance as possible / delay fatigue as much as possible. For this to work, your brain MUST 1) recognise & 2) remember the CONSISTENT pace you are using (read Tim Noakes' central governor theory about this). Hence, pace NOT HR matters the most here.

3) Aerobic filler mid distance runs (4-10km): See how you are filling that day. If you are feeling a tad tired / sluggish & your next workout is gonna be a hard one, I would say use HR. If you are feeling ok, then just stick to your desired range of pace. No hard and fast rule for filler runs. You want to half-half also can. First half use HR to be more conservative then end strong on the 2nd half using pace.

4) Threshold (LT2) and HIIT: I would say both HR and pace, but pace gets priority. For these 2 workouts, HR is a very useful secondary indicator to ensure you are indeed working hard.

 

[Ender]

You can try testing it on track, put your bottle at one corner cool yourself down from time to time

Yes, it's a different workout but it was harder, I was doing 3k easy, 5k steady, 6k HMP. I usually go for harder workout compared to the previous week, to see if I can improve on that. For that run, I tweaked my strategy and then run longer and faster.

I managed to run faster at a longer distance, not having to exert as hard. And I think I can still improve on that, since it's a work in progress.

First 3km: 5.20
Mid 5km: 4.55
Last 6.14km: 4.32

From a comparison standpoint, it's definitely not as exact as what you are getting at. But I want to keep tweaking the strategy to optimise it to be more efficient and also injury-free.

I am more concerned with heat and recovery runs. Not really on cardiac drift. The avg. HR is a lot higher during recovery runs because of the heat. I believe that slowing down is important but it shouldn't come at the expense of changing running form too much. Most of the times, I just go with vdot/macmillian calculator for recovery pace at the slower end of it. This would still give me 150+ avg. HR because of the heat. During the run, I could still run at conversational pace with my sibling. The national triathlete, Aaron Lee went from threadmill running with air con at 125 avg. HR to 153 avg. HR, despite slowing down his pace 5.27 > 6.07.

At the end of the day, what matters is that my legs are not feeling too fatigue after the easy run. And it serves that purpose even though I am running at 150 avg. HR, which isn't considered as easy by the watch. If this was the case and I have been doing this for weeks, I will be injured by now for going too hard continuously for my easy runs.

Maybe I old liao. For me, easy day, has to mean easy. SO there will not be slotting in pushing abit, farlek hill climb., Just pure mileage accumulation. The type of load that can be done everyday if there's no high intensity days or LSD days. In fact I did that with MAF training during the lock down. Every run was easy, and ran almost everyday. Surprise thing was I got my 5km PB during the covid with no threshold or interval training in 2020 or 2021. And it's still puzzle me why like that. My watch also reduce my Vo2max (estimated) to low 40s then due to the slow and low intensity runs.

 

[ctan84]

Maybe I old liao. For me, easy day, has to mean easy. SO there will not be slotting in pushing abit, farlek hill climb., Just pure mileage accumulation. The type of load that can be done everyday if there's no high intensity days or LSD days. In fact I did that with MAF training during the lock down. Every run was easy, and ran almost everyday. Surprise thing was I got my 5km PB during the covid with no threshold or interval training in 2020 or 2021. And it's still puzzle me why like that. My watch also reduce my Vo2max (estimated) to low 40s then due to the slow and low intensity runs.

Mai say that lah. 2nd or even third wind in running life is always possible one.

Here, see this: https://run.outsideonline.com/people/how-73-year-old-jeannie-rice-keeps-getting-faster/

 

[Ender]

Yep, ok will try to run on treadmill in aircon room the next time I get an opportunity.

Cos I cannot tahan running on treadmill, scenery never change I will get very bored. So far all my runs are done outdoors. But think need to run on it once in awhile to track my progress.

Train outside lah. Drift qiu drift lor, mybfd.
My Seng kang side, got one barefoot runner. He the one that intro me MAF running. His has this habit to do afternoon run in the hot sun (like 10km) a couple of time a week ontop of his usual evening run.
His easy days are >20km, coz his maf pace is fast. 124bpm run at <5:30 pace. no cardiac drift throughout his 25km -30km run all MAF.

 

[Irenicus91]

Train outside lah. Drift qiu drift lor, mybfd.
My Seng kang side, got one barefoot runner. He the one that intro me MAF running. His has this habit to do afternoon run in the hot sun (like 10km) a couple of time a week ontop of his usual evening run.
His easy days are >20km, coz his maf pace is fast. 124bpm run at <5:30 pace. no cardiac drift throughout his 25km -30km run all MAF.

Ya, planning to continue running outside at the park mostly. Run treadmill / track really bo feel.

Wah he run MAF for how long liao sia, must be many years by this point?

The track during afternoon really quite hot de sia, maybe contributed to his speed

 

[WussRedXLi]

Zhun boh, this year Skechers run is at 4pm in June sports hub ah.

Right now 3.42pm Tai Seng is heat index 40 deg C leh. Dont think at Sports Hub is radically different.
Probably standard route, Stadium walk, Geylang PCN, ME, GBTB, turn.

Too hardcore for me.

 

[WussRedXLi]

Yep, ok will try to run on treadmill in aircon room the next time I get an opportunity.

Cos I cannot tahan running on treadmill, scenery never change I will get very bored. So far all my runs are done outdoors. But think need to run on it once in awhile to track my progress.

I cannot tahan treadmill too....plus currently no easy access to it. I dont really like the heat also.
Some folks might some help in finding/experiencing easy paces without being bogged down by the drift.
As you get more conditioned and acclimatised, the drift would get better.

In fact even 5+ am start on the bike is abit warm and just bearable for easy cycling paces, but i'll take it.....coz no other solution. Cannot be always wait till extended rainy weather or wait till Dec - Mar then whack (Even then there would be some drift, just less).

 

[milkiee]

i have started threadmill running recently due to change in schedule.
the activesg gym pass is quite cheap for offpeak hours (mon - thurs) at $40 for 6-months.

yeah it is quite boring and i just listen to the podcast while running.
another issue is that you can smell other people sweat because the treadmills are next to one another in a closed environment. if you get a heavy sweater next to you then gg.com

 

[Jeremy1]

Uncle just completed my treadmill run for today

 

[Jeremy1]

i have started threadmill running recently due to change in schedule.
the activesg gym pass is quite cheap for offpeak hours (mon - thurs) at $40 for 6-months.

yeah it is quite boring and i just listen to the podcast while running.
another issue is that you can smell other people sweat because the treadmills are next to one another in a closed environment. if you get a heavy sweater next to you then gg.com

The AF Gym which I went to super new and inside only have 5 persons using

 

[WussRedXLi]

Pinoy and Pinay came to SG to hoot

Race day vid from the pinoy

 

[WussRedXLi]

Uncle just completed my treadmill run for today

Wow, you can tahan 45 mins. But good lah, got AC.....and if there are fans then lagi better