jogging and motivation thread

[WussRedXLi]

so based on your understanding, it's just the forward lean that help her propel from 6km to 4.15km pace?

How to apply this in practice:
• Don’t reach forward with the foot
• Let the foot drop closer to where your body is, not out in front
• Think about sending force into the ground, not pushing back <- means what ah?
• Keep the rhythm the same — let speed come from contact quality, not faster steps
• Stay tall through the torso; the angle should emerge naturally from motion

Think you can just check out this fella's vids. I learnt a lot from him.
Then after practice, will be neuromuscular memory.

If you dont have any big biomechanical issues, most "good habits" can be learned. But depending on your particular biomechanics, not all are applicable, and sometimes some aspects are highly dependent on things like the pace you are capable of.
For eg, this (slight) forward lean of 2-4 deg aspect that you are raising, it's pace dependent. There are also nuances like how it's generally beneficial for 4:00 or even faster runners, but it might be not benefical to shufflers that you see in really long distance running. Just observe how the general public run out there on PCNs and stadium track, can see both types. Being totally upright might be more energy conserving for some. Ultimately, we want to expend the least energy for the most distance/pace, shuffling is better for really slow paces. Do not lean excessively....it's generally more energy consuming.


Below : See how the forward lean at the ankle affects energy return/contact time etc. Do not lean from the pelvis.
And also the paw back thingy that you highlighted










Bonus :



You'd see differing amounts of fwd lean, sometimes it really depends on the personal biomechanics as people have different limb and torso lengths . Your body more or less would sort itself out.
These are extreme examples just for illustrations, dont copy anywhere near their style until you have done the necessary strengthening in those areas.

 

[WussRedXLi]

BTW, one thing about this forward lean, is that you'd need a certain degree of upper body posterior chain + core strength......particularly if you are doing long distance long duration and running decently fast. Not that you'd need a lot of it, but yes you still need to specifically train for it if you wanna maintain.

It's like one of those strength thingys like if you wanna hold a long aero / TT position the bike, you need triceps, traps, deltoids, serratus anterior, erector spinae, lats, neck muscles (upper traps) even........
Most regular cyclists (unless if they gym rats or into cali or similar) cannot do 1hr for this, maybe 20 mins also difficult.

edit - solution is : do your pull ups + dips?

 

[WussRedXLi]

Good to repost

S&C with Jakob

He does chin ups also.

Explosive eccentric - maybe placeabo, but i think it does help in some cases if you make any "explosive" sound when eccentric movement. Or the ubiquitous "shhhh" sound.


1. quarter rep squats 2 x 10 reps, weight i believe is 100kg (4 plates of 20 + bar which i assume is 20 as standard)
So that'd be about 1.5x BW, intermediate.
After which they added another 20kg for total of 120kg for 2nd set.
If convert to single leg squat (eg b stance split leg or bulgarian split squat), that'd be around 25kg as the median (range from 9 - 43kg)

Explosive eccentric, slow concentric

Preferably do the single leg variant, you'd be nicely surprised at how much asymmetry in strength between your left and right leg when you start training.

Anyway, i also dont do until quads parallel to the floor, it's 2 x small couch pillows on my chair that i use to gauge. So not very deep but it's a bit deeper than Jakob.

2, Weighted lunges, 2 x 6 reps. 20+5 each side + 20 bar = 70kg. Not very deep also, 1/2 depth
Explosive

3. Step ups, 2 x 6 reps. 70kg
Explosive

4. Romanian Deadlift 2 x 10 reps 70kg 1/2 rep
Explosive concentric, slow eccentric
Single leg variant i think 20kg more than sufficient if done explosively. I like to have control and less speed so 60kg for me.


6 chin ups, 8 reps for him. Another runner did 11 reps.

 

[WussRedXLi]

 

[rECKleSSfElla]

For anyone intererested, Li Ning SG retail store prices
Redhare 9U $190
Feidian 6E $275

Think all colorways available. From photos thought i really like this colorway

But when i saw the actual thing dont know why but i feel it looks like a UFO with rgb lights

 

[Kuudere]

Not confident but just staying positive haha. Running is a sport which I think you will be rewarded(Hitting your target) if you put in the work. If end of the day, I didn’t hit my target, I just got to work harder. That’s just my personal opinion.

If you really see yourself going the hard work route, I think eventually might need to consider doubles, specifically on weekends.

But if you are able to WFH, can go one step further and do weekday doubles.

For now, I will go with the 18/55 plan. Might be able to do 18/63, see how it goes. I can't run weekday doubles since my job is purely work in office, unless I move to another more flexible job.

so based on your understanding, it's just the forward lean that help her propel from 6km to 4.15km pace?

How to apply this in practice:
• Don’t reach forward with the foot
• Let the foot drop closer to where your body is, not out in front
• Think about sending force into the ground, not pushing back <- means what ah?
• Keep the rhythm the same — let speed come from contact quality, not faster steps
• Stay tall through the torso; the angle should emerge naturally from motion

I think Wuss already mentioned a lot on the forward lean effect, but I will add on one point.

When you increase your pace, some people cadence increase more relative to stride length, and some people stride length increase more relative to cadence.

I know a female runner friend, she was averaging 190+ steps per minute when she ran her sub-3 hour marathon. For myself, I am more of stride runner rather than cadence runner, quite similar to the girl in the video, more cadence will barely increase much but my stride length changes a lot more. I hover closer to 180 during a hard run or a bit less.

Everyone has a different stride. My recent 6.06km run @ 4.02 min/km was 1.39m stride length, 179 steps per minute. When I cooldown for 2.72km @ 6.41 min/km, my stride length became 0.85, 175 steps per minute.

Apart from running mechanics, breathing matters a lot too. How you breathe during the run, will help you to maintain the pace. Willn't get too much into that, since everyone has their natural breathing method that works for them.

 

[WussRedXLi]

Kristian Blummenfelt

 

[WussRedXLi]

I think Wuss already mentioned a lot on the forward lean effect, but I will add on one point.

When you increase your pace, some people cadence increase more relative to stride length, and some people stride length increase more relative to cadence.

I know a female runner friend, she was averaging 190+ steps per minute when she ran her sub-3 hour marathon. For myself, I am more of stride runner rather than cadence runner, quite similar to the girl in the video, more cadence will barely increase much but my stride length changes a lot more. I hover closer to 180 during a hard run or a bit less.

Everyone has a different stride. My recent 6.06km run @ 4.02 min/km was 1.39m stride length, 179 steps per minute. When I cooldown for 2.72km @ 6.41 min/km, my stride length became 0.85, 175 steps per minute.

Apart from running mechanics, breathing matters a lot too. How you breathe during the run, will help you to maintain the pace. Willn't get too much into that, since everyone has their natural breathing method that works for them.

That Fredrik uncle coach also said something about cadence and strides depending on situation. Till today i still cannot understand fully. Only understand that the most energy saving is good and hopefully we are elastic enough to save the most amount of energy.

I think ultimately, really need to extend our "flexibility" or "elasticity" or whatever you may call it and be able to tahan slower/high cadences and also shorter/longer strides and hopefully our bodies would gravitate to the most energy efficient setting. Like some folks just neruomuscularly cannot run fast at 180-195spm range....and then they are also limited to a certain stride length. Bro glassdoor can tahan 190+ for his shorter ~ 5k TTs i think, and he is in his mid 50s already.
This is probably quite dependent on the strength and neuromuscular elasticity that one can give and it needs to be trained. The same thing goes in cycling. Like for eg, i can "stretch" till around 1.4 - 1.50++ m stride length and still feel ok, and ultimately no issue ie no injuries nowadays, wrt to the level of plyo + S&C and distance/intensity i am doing.
But then if another fella runs 160spm (recently got 1 did that in the what inter-tertiary 5k poly/ITE competition), that means need to stride nearly 1.9m if at 3:10-3:20 pace (eg if i do 3k). I'm sorry, 1.9m is crazy, i totally cannot do even if i stretch, nevermind the injury aspect.
But then for 3k, i need to up 190+ spm coz i feel maxed out at around 1.5m ++
For sprints of coz that is another matter.

Ultimately not pro or elite, so i think the best is that we can adapt and perform around a wider performance envelope. There are folks who cannot and that might be the limiter, not that he/she is aerobically limited.

There is also similar regarding cadence and power as the race goes on, the graph shifts around and changes etc. Damn cheem one.
But i'm still learning and it's quite interesting, no hurry ba......just hobby only, it's the journey not the destination.





Our bodies really wonderful, esp if there is sufficient experience. If you are racing or trying a very hard effort, and riding across different routes/roads and gradients and headwind/tailwind, it would "self select" one.
In cycling, we have gears of coz. So in order to "survive", depending on whether it is still early and legs are fresh, mid ride or late ride, whether the glutes or the quads are more laden with lactate, we would be able to self select the best gearing in order to achieve a good speed or when to off saddle for best power output in order to still latch on or when to guai guai stay seated for best energy efficiency.
Also, for road riding, there are quite a fair number of times in which there is no choice but to cheong also, just to merge with traffic. So bo bian, forced to ride fast in order to survive. It's not as constant as running.
Provided not much limited aerobically or too much lactate in the muscles.

But this only comes with experience, then it becomes muscle memory / neuromuscular liao.

 

[WussRedXLi]

Really need to expose your body parts to REAL stresses and not just basic movements that might cut it for beginners. Tendons respond to the same progressive overload that you do to your aerobic, anaerobic, muscles.

He might actually be correct, esp if one is still getting injured and re-injured and then re-injured again year after year despite doing all those injury prevention exercises.

 

[Ender]

Really need to expose your body parts to REAL stresses and not just basic movements that might cut it for beginners. Tendons respond to the same progressive overload that you do to your aerobic, anaerobic, muscles.

He might actually be correct, esp if one is still getting injured and re-injured and then re-injured again year after year despite doing all those injury prevention exercises.

This book is gold for injury rehab and prevention. My philosophy revolves around this book.
Movement is gold for rehab, if mobility is achievable. Small load, consistency trumps high load, low consistency (too much rest inbetween). Specificity is gold. isolate strength training helps, but not that gold and usually ignore by runners.


https://mattfitzgerald.org/

Pain & Performance: The Revolutionary New Way to Use Training as Treatment for Pain and Injury​

 

[xllms]

If you really see yourself going the hard work route, I think eventually might need to consider doubles, specifically on weekends.

But if you are able to WFH, can go one step further and do weekday doubles.

For now, I will go with the 18/55 plan. Might be able to do 18/63, see how it goes. I can't run weekday doubles since my job is purely work in office, unless I move to another more flexible job.

I think Wuss already mentioned a lot on the forward lean effect, but I will add on one point.

When you increase your pace, some people cadence increase more relative to stride length, and some people stride length increase more relative to cadence.

I know a female runner friend, she was averaging 190+ steps per minute when she ran her sub-3 hour marathon. For myself, I am more of stride runner rather than cadence runner, quite similar to the girl in the video, more cadence will barely increase much but my stride length changes a lot more. I hover closer to 180 during a hard run or a bit less.

Everyone has a different stride. My recent 6.06km run @ 4.02 min/km was 1.39m stride length, 179 steps per minute. When I cooldown for 2.72km @ 6.41 min/km, my stride length became 0.85, 175 steps per minute.

Apart from running mechanics, breathing matters a lot too. How you breathe during the run, will help you to maintain the pace. Willn't get too much into that, since everyone has their natural breathing method that works for them.

likewise, i am a stride runner more than a cadence runner. My cadence goes up only when I pick up speed, stride distance increase as well. But I can hardly increase my cadence when I go slow. Still trying to learn to increase my cadence at slow Z2/Z3 runs. Whenever I tried, my HR will spike up. Any good advice?

 

[WussRedXLi]

This book is gold for injury rehab and prevention. My philosophy revolves around this book.
Movement is gold for rehab, if mobility is achievable. Small load, consistency trumps high load, low consistency (too much rest inbetween). Specificity is gold. isolate strength training helps, but not that gold and usually ignore by runners.


https://mattfitzgerald.org/

Pain & Performance: The Revolutionary New Way to Use Training as Treatment for Pain and Injury​

Well continue what you are doing if it works in your schedule.

But I think there is also significant difference between me and you marathon guys, coz my distance is comparatively much lower (as low as 3k) and pace is comparatively much higher down to lowish 3:xx paces, flat ground/hill sprints, strides, 200s etc which are 2:xx. The loading on the tendons possibly might be different, for eg when running fast i also could feel the need to bias more forefoot else i really cant seem to even cope to run that fast.

Of coz, there might be 2:30, 2:45 FM, 1:15, 1:20 HM fast runners in the private hobbyist space, im not so sure........or there might be 50 min 15k runners (3:20 pace) somewhat shorter or even 10k range. We actually have a similar middle aged runner in this thread, totally private no clubs etc. If he doesn't join this thread, nobody knows also.
These fellas might have different requirements? Coz they run both long + fast.

And then at the other end of the spectrum, we'd have the short and medium distance runners.
I think for sure they will have quite different approaches to injury prevention.


Anyway, I'm only trying out and copying what those faster runners are doing and reporting.....like the Jakob Ingrebrigsten vid i share last night. The distance that he runs not too different from mine.
Also for me it's not only strength training but also plyometrics......not sure how much plyo helps out for injury prevention but there shd be some good loading there as well, both are supposedly good for injury prevention and also performance enhancement.
So that's basically 4x weekly (2+2) sessions together at the moment......not sure if that counts as infrequent or frequent.

But then i think ultimately for me is, so far so good i have had zero injuries so far for the past 1.5 - 2 years or so. There was one in 2024, my upper left hamstring tendon niggle, but then no issue after i started band work with that and never recurred.

 

[WussRedXLi]

~ 200 spm also. Actually from experience it's damn tiring and taxing on the anterior tibialis as that muscle is so small and that is the first to go or be limited by it if not trained properly.
Actually over 200 spm, i cant measure properly coz pretty fast and it's difficult to keep up on the app, but it could be 210-215

1h 35m 01s for 20km (dont know why they flashed the 21.0975 figure which is HM), 4:45 pace. Pretty close to international/Olympic standard, which for women is down to 4:30 pace

 

[Ender]

likewise, i am a stride runner more than a cadence runner. My cadence goes up only when I pick up speed, stride distance increase as well. But I can hardly increase my cadence when I go slow. Still trying to learn to increase my cadence at slow Z2/Z3 runs. Whenever I tried, my HR will spike up. Any good advice?

Don't worry about cadence. Give an example, Jim Walmsley, Ultra distance runner, did the Hoka 100km Challenge , his Strava is only 161 cadence at 3:41 min/km average for 6 ++hours . Running gait will self organize thru consistent training rather than conscious correction. You will find your own rhythm as your body improve and naturally adapt. Myself, I am doing average 172 cadence at 6:30 min/pace. this feel natural without any conscious effort to correct anything.

 

[Ender]

Well continue what you are doing if it works in your schedule.

But I think there is also significant difference for me and you marathon guys, coz my distance is comparatively much lower (as low as 3k) and pace is comparatively much higher down to lowish 3:xx paces, flat ground/hill sprints, strides, 200s etc which are 2:xx. The loading on the tendons possibly might be different, when running fast i also could feel the need to bias more forefoot else i really cant seem to even cope to run that fast.

Of coz, there might be 2:30, 2:45 runners in the clubs or in the private space, im not so sure........or there might be 50 min 15k runners (3:20 pace). We already have a similar runner in this thread
These fellas might have different requirements? Coz they run both long + fast.


Anyway, I'm only trying out and copying what those faster runners are doing and reporting.....like the Jakob Ingrebrigsten vid i share last night.
Also for me it's not only strength training but also plyometrics......not sure how much plyo helps out for injury prevention but there shd be some good loading there as well, both are supposedly good for injury prevention and also performance enhancement.
So that's basically 4x weekly (2+2) sessions together at the moment......not sure if that counts as infrequent or frequent.

But then i think ultimately for me is, so far so good i have had zero injuries so far for the past 1.5 - 2 years or so. There was one in 2024, my upper left hamstring tendon niggle, but then no issue after i started band work with that and never recurred.

Thought you may want to take a look a the book. It is a highly well read book among endurance enthusiat.No need to buy, most AI chat bot already know the book, and you can ask to highlight key points or summarize book. AI can even tailor a recovery base on the book philosophy.

 

[xllms]

Don't worry about cadence. Give an example, Jim Walmsley, Ultra distance runner, did the Hoka 100km Challenge , his Strava is only 161 cadence at 3:41 min/km average for 6 ++hours . Running gait will self organize thru consistent training rather than conscious correction. You will find your own rhythm as your body improve and naturally adapt. Myself, I am doing average 172 cadence at 6:30 min/pace. this feel natural without any conscious effort to correct anything.

ditto.
just exploring the possibility of increasing my cadence. if its not natural for me, maybe it is better to build better strength to increase stride length and stronger lift off

 

[Ender]

ditto.
just exploring the possibility of increasing my cadence. if its not natural for me, maybe it is better to build better strength to increase stride length and stronger lift off

Agree, if you build strength, your gait will change in respond to that new adaptation. But it will be natural, not conscious effort to change.

 

[WussRedXLi]

Thought you may want to take a look a the book. It is a highly well read book among endurance enthusiat.No need to buy, most AI chat bot already know the book, and you can ask to highlight key points or summarize book. AI can even tailor a recovery base on the book philosophy.

Yeah you are right..... just use AI to kope But hopefully the gist of what AI picks up is true -i have come across some tidbits from AI that i sometimes dont quite agree with also

I'll keep in mind and try AI to siphon in future, i have seen Matt F in the long distance tri / IM / ultra space but then again that's the thing.....currently i'm not into long distance. But if needed in future should i do longer distances, will see if i can get any tips ...

Anyway, not sure if this Mike F is the same fella as that guy who does IM / triathlons and ultras.

 

[Kuudere]

That Fredrik uncle coach also said something about cadence and strides depending on situation. Till today i still cannot understand fully. Only understand that the most energy saving is good and hopefully we are elastic enough to save the most amount of energy.

I think ultimately, really need to extend our "flexibility" or "elasticity" or whatever you may call it and be able to tahan slower/high cadences and also shorter/longer strides and hopefully our bodies would gravitate to the most energy efficient setting. Like some folks just neruomuscularly cannot run fast at 180-195spm range....and then they are also limited to a certain stride length. Bro glassdoor can tahan 190+ for his shorter ~ 5k TTs i think, and he is in his mid 50s already.
This is probably quite dependent on the strength and neuromuscular elasticity that one can give and it needs to be trained. The same thing goes in cycling. Like for eg, i can "stretch" till around 1.4 - 1.50++ m stride length and still feel ok, and ultimately no issue ie no injuries nowadays, wrt to the level of plyo + S&C and distance/intensity i am doing.
But then if another fella runs 160spm (recently got 1 did that in the what inter-tertiary 5k poly/ITE competition), that means need to stride nearly 1.9m if at 3:10-3:20 pace (eg if i do 3k). I'm sorry, 1.9m is crazy, i totally cannot do even if i stretch, nevermind the injury aspect.
But then for 3k, i need to up 190+ spm coz i feel maxed out at around 1.5m ++
For sprints of coz that is another matter.

Ultimately not pro or elite, so i think the best is that we can adapt and perform around a wider performance envelope. There are folks who cannot and that might be the limiter, not that he/she is aerobically limited.

There is also similar regarding cadence and power as the race goes on, the graph shifts around and changes etc. Damn cheem one.
But i'm still learning and it's quite interesting, no hurry ba......just hobby only, it's the journey not the destination.





Our bodies really wonderful, esp if there is sufficient experience. If you are racing or trying a very hard effort, and riding across different routes/roads and gradients and headwind/tailwind, it would "self select" one.
In cycling, we have gears of coz. So in order to "survive", depending on whether it is still early and legs are fresh, mid ride or late ride, whether the glutes or the quads are more laden with lactate, we would be able to self select the best gearing in order to achieve a good speed or when to off saddle for best power output in order to still latch on or when to guai guai stay seated for best energy efficiency.
Also, for road riding, there are quite a fair number of times in which there is no choice but to cheong also, just to merge with traffic. So bo bian, forced to ride fast in order to survive. It's not as constant as running.
Provided not much limited aerobically or too much lactate in the muscles.

But this only comes with experience, then it becomes muscle memory / neuromuscular liao.

Need a lot of flexibility and leg strength. I don't consider myself flexible at all, can't really touch my toes when I bend my back. Rely a lot on hamstring/hip strength to power through.

I could go up to 1.66m stride length, I did this for 1km last year may. And 1.6m average for 2.4k all out, with 180 spm average.

likewise, i am a stride runner more than a cadence runner. My cadence goes up only when I pick up speed, stride distance increase as well. But I can hardly increase my cadence when I go slow. Still trying to learn to increase my cadence at slow Z2/Z3 runs. Whenever I tried, my HR will spike up. Any good advice?

I wouldn't bother about cadence/stride length at all when going slow. If going slow, you just want to have a chill run and not worry about mechanics. Personally, my cadence doesn't change much when I go slow. I still maintain my form but my stride length drops a lot.

If going fast on the other hand, then here is some advice:

Improve cadence: Do strides, hill sprints >> The pfitz marathon plan has this as part of the workouts actually
Improve stride length: Plyometrics (hops/skipping drills), strength training (glutes, hamstring, calves)
Improve both: Short interval repetitions (400s)

Don't worry about cadence. Give an example, Jim Walmsley, Ultra distance runner, did the Hoka 100km Challenge , his Strava is only 161 cadence at 3:41 min/km average for 6 ++hours . Running gait will self organize thru consistent training rather than conscious correction. You will find your own rhythm as your body improve and naturally adapt. Myself, I am doing average 172 cadence at 6:30 min/pace. this feel natural without any conscious effort to correct anything.

yeah i think everyone has their own rhythm when running. over time, just optimise accordingly with more running to suit their running form.

 

[WussRedXLi]

F man, i think didnt take enough water with the creatine and/or never swooshed enough in the mouth. First time. I usually take as much as 8-10g, so many times already, no issue.

Only took just 5g just now, as i take this daily just differing doses. After like 45 mins my stomach and intestines cramped and spasm and i went to toilet to relieve coz it caused intestinal movement. Also nearly vomitted but never in the end.
Felt faint also.

After 20 mins (now), totally ok liao.

Super terok feeling.


AI Overview



Stomach cramping after taking creatine is usually caused by
taking too high a dose at once (especially during a loading phase), not drinking enough water, or the powder not being fully dissolved. It causes water to be drawn into your intestines, leading to osmotic diarrhea or stomach cramps.
Verywell Health +2
Common Reasons for Stomach Cramps:

• High Dosage: Taking
  
  at once can cause digestive distress.
• Lack of Water: If the powder is not fully dissolved, it remains in the gut and pulls water from the body into the intestines, causing cramps.
• Loading Phase: The rapid intake of 20g+ per day often causes bloating and discomfort.
  Healthline +3

How to Prevent Cramping:

• Skip Loading: Take
  
  per day instead of
  
  .
• Increase Water Intake: Drink plenty of water (an extra
  
  daily).
• Use Micronized Creatine: This dissolves better in water, reducing stomach irritation.