Will minimum wage laws work here?

[Okenba]

If they give lower wage, people would not work for them and companies do need human resource.

And so you are saying that companies will not give too low a wage now because they need to attract people to work for them. True. They need to pay enough to attract people.

If there is a minimum wage, people who give lower than the minimum wage would have to increase their wages and icnrease their business costs

Meaning that you do think that there are companies now who are paying less than minimum wage. So some workers will benefit from minimum wage.

BUT at the same time, companies who have gave more than the minimum wage can reduce it to just the minimum wage since it is deemed by the govt that we can survive with this minimum wage.

Yes, they can. But if the wage is not competitive, then just like your first scenario, they are forced to raise wages to the point where people will be attracted to work for them.

People are not going to magically think that a low wage is desirable just because there is a minimum wage.

Which one do you prefer now? to be much much more than the minimum wage or just the minimum wage?

The way I see it, the question should be
Which one do you prefer? To have some workers below and some above minimum wage, or Have some workers at and some above the minimum wage?

Caveat: There ARE disadvantages to minimum wage. I just don't think this is one of them.

 

[Some-one]

150 other countries can. i don't see why we cannot.

It is not that we cannot but one has to understand the economics of using minimum wages. When a lot of countries are doing it, it does not mean that they are doing it right. I think a lot of people in this thread has stated some of the problems with minimum wage, I shall not continue. Just don't keep thinking that we should follow and copy other countries without considering our own circumstances.

 

[spitfirxe]

do you think jobs for degree holder can even be paid at minimum wage and that degree holders at neighbouring country will be enticed by minimum wage? look at the s pass and e pass holders, their minimum wage is way higher than the general minimum wage for low skilled/level workers we are talking about here

they won;t be enticed.

but if everyone is doing it, do they have a choice?

unless they switch to other countries and let the sg economy collapse. bosses can shift. employees harder.

 

[Okenba]

It is basically capitalism. Business owners would want to pay as much less as possible.

Which is exactly what they're doing now isn't it?
Hence minimum wage would force them to pay more.

If they are already paying above minimum wage, that means that the labour market is only willing to accept that as the current level, how will having a minimum wage suddenly convince the labour market to accept a lower wage?

 

[spitfirxe]

And so you are saying that companies will not give too low a wage now because they need to attract people to work for them. True. They need to pay enough to attract people.



Meaning that you do think that there are companies now who are paying less than minimum wage. So some workers will benefit from minimum wage.



Yes, they can. But if the wage is not competitive, then just like your first scenario, they are forced to raise wages to the point where people will be attracted to work for them.

People are not going to magically think that a low wage is desirable just because there is a minimum wage.



The way I see it, the question should be
Which one do you prefer? To have some workers below and some above minimum wage, or Have some workers at and some above the minimum wage?

Caveat: There ARE disadvantages to minimum wage. I just don't think this is one of them.

you have to consider that you have made an assumption - that bosses are willing to increase pay to attract people.

what happens if all decides to implement the min wage system, abuse it and pays the same?

 

[tatsit]

high turn over? that will happen everywhere

the min wage rule applies across all industries and sectors.

If i as the CEO uses the min wage system to depress the wages even lower, how do you assume the other CEOs won't?

Based on human kindness and compassion?

So, where will employees turn to? Company A? B? C? D? all giving the same wages.

no idea where in everywhere are you referring to. so are you saying citizens of the western countries such as USA or UK are all earning the same wage because of minimum wage? so an accountant in USA earns the same as a rubbish collector in USA?

this will indeed affect my future earnings, but it will affect the poor much more.

I can always earn money from many other markets and people.

But if collectively, the bosses don't let the money flow back, the employees suffer the most.

Bosses will always still have accumulated wealth to sustain. Just as you said, I suck the well dry, but I have collected all the water that well has to offer.

So who will die off first?

like you said, you suck out all the water, everyone below you will die, you live alone.. forever.

i think right now we are already on the equilibrium, the only time when we are off the charts is when u see riots and strikes on the streets.

riots and strikes are prohibited. you require permit for it.

in any case, right now we are relying on cheap foreign labour for low level jobs simply because that kind of pay cant earn us a living in sg. are we able to sustain an economy with locals on both high and low level jobs? nope. we are already off the equilibrium.

 

[lucified_lance]

do you think jobs for degree holder can even be paid at minimum wage and that degree holders at neighbouring country will be enticed by minimum wage? look at the s pass and e pass holders, their minimum wage is way higher than the general minimum wage for low skilled/level workers we are talking about here

im comparing high skilled with high skilled and low skilled with low skilled.

In every organizations, they will always be a cap at how much they r willing to pay for an admin officer/ secretary / or an executive.

If u are an executive in a coy, and u demand more pay, there r only 2 outcomes,
1. boss analysis whether u deserve it
2. boss decides to fire u and hire some who is willing to work for that "minimum wage"


For low skilled workers, it seems pretty good, but business owners will use it as an excuse to demand higher price tags, r u comfortable with that?



All in all, i think instead of minimum wage, we should have a capped minimum cost. So we will know based on the profit margins the different coys produced, we shall identify who are the greedy mutha farkers!

 

[spitfirxe]

Which is exactly what they're doing now isn't it?
Hence minimum wage would force them to pay more.

If they are already paying above minimum wage, that means that the labour market is only willing to accept that as the current level, how will having a minimum wage suddenly convince the labour market to accept a lower wage?

yes, it could work this way.

but it is a double edged sword.

why do bosses have to convince, when all bosses are paying the same?

remember, with the min wage law, it is not wrong or illegal to offer a pay that is lower than the current pay, as long as it is above the min sum.

 

[Sakagamii]

min wages affect company's profits.

u all know how fkin pro-business our govt is, u tnk they will introduce min wages meh. country infrastructure that affects citizens so much they alrdy lazy to fix u tnk they'll bother to introduce min wages that helps citizens but affects companies?

 

[kel666]

It is not that we cannot but one has to understand the economics of using minimum wages. When a lot of countries are doing it, it does not mean that they are doing it right. I think a lot of people in this thread has stated some of the problems with minimum wage, I shall not continue. Just don't keep thinking that we should follow and copy other countries without considering our own circumstances.

it will work if EVERY companies follows the law. So tell me why does the S pass works? U see any foreigner complaining their salaries is not raising?

 

[lucified_lance]

Which is exactly what they're doing now isn't it?
Hence minimum wage would force them to pay more.

If they are already paying above minimum wage, that means that the labour market is only willing to accept that as the current level, how will having a minimum wage suddenly convince the labour market to accept a lower wage?

because humans are greedy, and employers are always ready to hire some1 cheaper to replace you from our large ft labour market. its sad, but its true.

pls dont always think that bosses and business owners have a charitable heart. if they do, they would have been bankrupt already.

 

[Okenba]

you have to consider that you have made an assumption - that bosses are willing to increase pay to attract people.

what happens if all decides to implement the min wage system, abuse it and pays the same?

The question remains. What is stopping them from doing it now?

 

[spitfirxe]

no idea where in everywhere are you referring to. so are you saying citizens of the western countries such as USA or UK are all earning the same wage because of minimum wage? so an accountant in USA earns the same as a rubbish collector in USA?

like you said, you suck out all the water, everyone below you will die, you live alone.. forever.


riots and strikes are prohibited. you require permit for it.

in any case, right now we are relying on cheap foreign labour for low level jobs simply because that kind of pay cant earn us a living in sg. are we able to sustain an economy with locals on both high and low level jobs? nope. we are already off the equilibrium.

i'm not using any countries as an example. but i wont extrapolate the information from other countries to singapore.

you may be right. companies will still increase pay, differentiate pay etc.

but what happens if companies retaliate by offering all the same pay to lobby against the min wage rule?

oh, they won't die off. remember? they still have min wages.

 

[lucified_lance]

it will work if EVERY companies follows the law. So tell me why does the S pass works? U see any foreigner complaining their salaries is not raising?

As u were saying that other 150 countries can do it, and why we cant? its because our of culture, and they way our govt are protecting the businesses here, afraid that they may leave. thats why.

Other countries culture is to take and give some back to society, our is to take and take. pay and pay.

 

[moolahloolah]

minimum wage is an easy solution to infrastructural problems and being an easy solution, it can backfire.

what do i mean by infrastructural?

if companies are allowed to thrived in Singapore, the economy is thriving and the workforce's skills are rising, do you think we need min wages?

when there is good demand and good supply for employment, do you think we need min wage.

if market forces are working well, min wages are not needed.

if there is an underwage class suffering from extreme low pay, there are other ways to help them beside min wages.

i would rather high tax on high earners for the government to alleviate the poorest, then to have min wages implemented.

 

[oldbreadstinks]

a min wage will "legalised" the lowering of wages to unsustainable levels.

right now, employers can discuss pay with their staff. Works on a PR basis, cause there's no hard and fast rule for pay matters.

With a new min wage ruling, employers have the "backing" of the law to offer the lowest wage possible, as long as it is higher than the min wages.

And we all know the min wages will not be high.

Min wage is not an issue if influx is controlled . It would bring up the wages of those at the bottom . Hardly going to affect anyone who can get a higher pay.

We're talking about cleaners type of $5-600 a month pay. Not those getting paid 1-2k or more.
If influx is controlled , companies would not be allowed to expand wantonly. It brings a sort of level ground since you can no longer afford to splash the cash to expand with cheap labour . It would slow down increase of rent. Allowing sole proprietary businesses to compete. Manpower isnt an issue for those businesses. One man shows in the first place.
but for the larger businesses they'll either be forced to canibalise and close poor outlets for manpower or poach from other businesses driving pay up.
with a better livable pay , min wage would provide a more stable workforce who dont need to worry about their next meal. And stay long enough to improve their services.

 

[Okenba]

because humans are greedy, and employers are always ready to hire some1 cheaper to replace you from our large ft labour market. its sad, but its true.

pls dont always think that bosses and business owners have a charitable heart. if they do, they would have been bankrupt already.

You see, you are assuming a change in the labour market from before min wage to after min wage. You are assuming a sudden influx of low wage workers willing to accept lower wages than the previous norm.

Even if you do not implement a min wage, this influx will still push the wages down.

Conversely, if there were no influx of workers, even if employers wanted to depress wages, the labour market would have already decided on the satisfactory pay level and would be unlikely to accept lower pay.

 

[dannytan87]

minimum wage is curing the symptom no the root cause. the root cause is foreign competition that is depressing the wages. just cut off the root cause the wages will go up.

PAP is not gonna help the ppl. this is not a welfare society so dun bother. though the best is to tie minimum wages to basic needs. at least the old granny picking cardboards can have 3 meals and a bed.

 

[tatsit]

im comparing high skilled with high skilled and low skilled with low skilled.

In every organizations, they will always be a cap at how much they r willing to pay for an admin officer/ secretary / or an executive.

If u are an executive in a coy, and u demand more pay, there r only 2 outcomes,
1. boss analysis whether u deserve it
2. boss decides to fire u and hire some who is willing to work for that "minimum wage"


For low skilled workers, it seems pretty good, but business owners will use it as an excuse to demand higher price tags, r u comfortable with that?



All in all, i think instead of minimum wage, we should have a capped minimum cost. So we will know based on the profit margins the different coys produced, we shall identify who are the greedy mutha farkers!

looks like we are talking about different things. the minimum wage here i'm talking about is only for low level workers like the cleaners or factory workers or waiters, etc. but some people just want to link them together with highly skilled workers stating that because of such minimum wage, even highly skilled workers will be paid the minimum wage.

the first example you give, that is a highly skilled industry, wages are well above the minimum wage

for the second example, i'd like to highlight to you that the cost of living in USA is lower than that of SG even with minimum wage well above what our low level workers are earning. the problem here in sg is the rent, not the wages.

 

[kel666]

i'm not using any countries as an example. but i wont extrapolate the information from other countries to singapore.

you may be right. companies will still increase pay, differentiate pay etc.

but what happens if companies retaliate by offering all the same pay to lobby against the min wage rule?

oh, they won't die off. remember? they still have min wages.

tat won't happen, remember most bosses are greedy. One will take advantage to hire ppl in tat situation by giving them more money, then the rest will follow.