2024 Market Sentiment & Positioning

limster

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I am continuing my FSMOne monthly RSP of 2800.HK and 3010.HK. Just buying $1k of each every month. RSP helps me ignore the emotions. But I adjusted my RSP to this week the 8th, because 2800.Hk price looks quite good at the moment.

For 2800.HK, the valuations in terms of P/E etc don't look so bad, at least thats what I say to console myself 😅
 

revhappy

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2000 was a bubble top (sp500 p/e >30), I dun think you can use that as a basis for comparison. CSI300 in 2009 wasn’t even that richly valued, it’s not like the basis that I’m using is 6000 pts or something. I think it’s fair to expect a decent return over 14 years when I pay an average valuation for an index fund.

This has just been very disappointing even though it makes up a very small % of my portfolio.
Yes, I remember when HSI index used to be 24k ages ago. The fact that HSI is now 16k, I just can't imagine how it is even possible. It is like S&P500 was 2000 when HSI was 24k 10 years back and now HSI is 16k while S&P500 is 4600. I mean how can anybody logically explain losing so much money over this time period, which you can never expect to earn back in your lifetime.
 

churnmaster

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Yes, I remember when HSI index used to be 24k ages ago. The fact that HSI is now 16k, I just can't imagine how it is even possible. It is like S&P500 was 2000 when HSI was 24k 10 years back and now HSI is 16k while S&P500 is 4600. I mean how can anybody logically explain losing so much money over this time period, which you can never expect to earn back in your lifetime.
To be fair, HSI did rally to around 33.5K so there was enough opportunity to liquidate and realize some profits. Even last October after dropping to around 14.5K it rallied to 22.5K, more than 55% rally in about 3 months. But I’m sure not many permabulls would have realized their gains during this bull run that’s because they are thinking in terms of 2X, 3X, 4X, etc.

If someone remains too greedy, they just lick their wounds when the market does something like now.
 

revhappy

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To be fair, HSI did rally to around 33.5K so there was enough opportunity to liquidate and realize some profits. Even last October after dropping to around 14.5K it rallied to 22.5K, more than 55% rally in about 3 months. But I’m sure not many permabulls would have realized their gains during this bull run that’s because they are thinking in terms of 2X, 3X, 4X, etc.

If someone remains too greedy, they just lick their wounds when the market does something like now.
Most people are investors and not traders. I wouldn't trade in and out with my entire networth. I don't know how you do it. I have an asset allocation and then I do take some bets on small amounts, which I usually get perfectly wrong. But imagine people who have long term allocation to Asia/China like 30% of their networth. They are not trading in an out and that is not supposed to be how it is done. We are supposed to accumulate into assets which generate returns. For example S&P500, trading in and out is not needed.
 

zeroX26

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Most people are investors and not traders. I wouldn't trade in and out with my entire networth. I don't know how you do it. I have an asset allocation and then I do take some bets on small amounts, which I usually get perfectly wrong. But imagine people who have long term allocation to Asia/China like 30% of their networth. They are not trading in an out and that is not supposed to be how it is done. We are supposed to accumulate into assets which generate returns. For example S&P500, trading in and out is not needed.
Its not trading in and out; its just portfolio rebalancing lah.
 

churnmaster

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Most people are investors and not traders. I wouldn't trade in and out with my entire networth. I don't know how you do it. I have an asset allocation and then I do take some bets on small amounts, which I usually get perfectly wrong. But imagine people who have long term allocation to Asia/China like 30% of their networth. They are not trading in an out and that is not supposed to be how it is done. We are supposed to accumulate into assets which generate returns. For example S&P500, trading in and out is not needed.
Who said you have to trade in and out with your entire networth ? If an index rallied 50% in a year and your investment in that index is up 30% wouldn’t you realize some of the profits if not all ?

Even, Warren Buffet, the most successful investor realizes the profits from his investments from time to time. No successful investor keeps accumulating hoping his / her investment to go to the moon.
 

DevilPlate

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Who said you have to trade in and out with your entire networth ? If an index rallied 50% in a year and your investment in that index is up 30% wouldn’t you realize some of the profits if not all ?

Even, Warren Buffet, the most successful investor realizes the profits from his investments from time to time. No successful investor keeps accumulating hoping his / her investment to go to the moon.
But many herds still inclined to hold SPY and QQQ for the next few decades hoping to achieve 8-10% pa. Whahaha

How about global index funds like VWRA? Need to rebalance, profit taking meh?
 

churnmaster

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But many herds still inclined to hold SPY and QQQ for the next few decades hoping to achieve 8-10% pa. Whahaha

How about global index funds like VWRA? Need to rebalance, profit taking meh?
It’s OK to hold however like in the case of HSI if you get more than 55% rally in about 3 months from Oct22 to Jan23 and if your investment is up 30% (which is like 3 years of your expected returns) won’t you take profit atleast partially.

Global index funds are tricky according to me. You get exposure to different markets and their underlying currencies. Majority of the currencies have faired badly against the SGD over the last 15 odd years. I don’t see that changing anytime soon. Further, the discipline to take partial profits and rebalancing remains even for a global index fund.


Just a point to point comparison between VWRA v/s VOO from 23/03/2020 to yesterday, shows that VOO has given superior returns in SGD terms. VOO about 92% gain v/s VWRA about 77% gain.
 

aurvandil

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It’s OK to hold however like in the case of HSI if you get more than 55% rally in about 3 months from Oct22 to Jan23 and if your investment is up 30% (which is like 3 years of your expected returns) won’t you take profit atleast partially.

Global index funds are tricky according to me. You get exposure to different markets and their underlying currencies. Majority of the currencies have faired badly against the SGD over the last 15 odd years. I don’t see that changing anytime soon. Further, the discipline to take partial profits and rebalancing remains even for a global index fund.


Just a point to point comparison between VWRA v/s VOO from 23/03/2020 to yesterday, shows that VOO has given superior returns in SGD terms. VOO about 92% gain v/s VWRA about 77% gain.

If you add in CPF and SG property to your asset mix, most of us are way overweight in SGD.
 

revhappy

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Who said you have to trade in and out with your entire networth ? If an index rallied 50% in a year and your investment in that index is up 30% wouldn’t you realize some of the profits if not all ?

Even, Warren Buffet, the most successful investor realizes the profits from his investments from time to time. No successful investor keeps accumulating hoping his / her investment to go to the moon.
No, because I would have bought the index 200% higher and then it crashed 50% so even though it rallied 100% I am still down 50%.

You may be the perfect timer in the world, please start a hedge fund and help earn money for others, instead of preaching here 🤣
 

d5dude

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Who said you have to trade in and out with your entire networth ? If an index rallied 50% in a year and your investment in that index is up 30% wouldn’t you realize some of the profits if not all ?

Even, Warren Buffet, the most successful investor realizes the profits from his investments from time to time. No successful investor keeps accumulating hoping his / her investment to go to the moon.

As someone who rebalance twice a year I can say for certain that rebalancing wouldnt have helped because China has greatly underperformed most markets, in fact I think it'd have been disastrous if one had large exposure to China.

Its really quite simple, rebalancing essentially means selling the winners to buy more of China (when it underperforms in any given year), but it doesnt pay to do this since China has massively underperformed over the long run, so odds are it usually goes up when other markets are up i.e the investor doesnt get to sell it to invest in other worse performing markets too often.

China has been terrible for investors, I wish the MSCI EM index only had countries like Mexico, India, Brazil, etc in it.
 

churnmaster

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If you add in CPF and SG property to your asset mix, most of us are way overweight in SGD.
That’s true and so from time to time I have exposure to US, UK, Brazil, India, etc in addition to SG thru stocks or ETFs. None of them thru Global index ETFs though.

Having said that there is nothing wrong in investing thru global index ETFs as long as one is not keen to know what is affecting its performance.
 

churnmaster

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No, because I would have bought the index 200% higher and then it crashed 50% so even though it rallied 100% I am still down 50%.

You may be the perfect timer in the world, please start a hedge fund and help earn money for others, instead of preaching here 🤣
You mean to say you would be a spectator when your investment tanks by 50% from 200 to 100 and then won’t add during the subsequent rebound to 150 ?

I tell you majority of investors are not comfortable cutting their losses and instead add to their positions thru DCA in the hope of getting a rebound and nothing wrong with that as a long term investor.

However, when they get a rebound sometimes as high as 50%, they fail to sell and realize the profits even on the portion added during the selloff and lower their acquisition cost.

Now, being a perfect timer, no I’m not and have never claimed to be one. But, I’m someone who looks at numbers differently. For eg. I recently showed you how your change in networth over 2 years is predominantly due to your savings while your investment returns were just about 10K on a 1.277 mln initial capital over 2 years. You never bothered to acknowledge. Never mind.

Remember, if we get a 10-15% selloff in the global markets, it will easily wipeout your year’s worth of savings. Have a plan in place to prevent such an outcome.

All the Best.
 

churnmaster

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As someone who rebalance twice a year I can say for certain that rebalancing wouldnt have helped because China has greatly underperformed most markets, in fact I think it'd have been disastrous if one had large exposure to China.

Its really quite simple, rebalancing essentially means selling the winners to buy more of China (when it underperforms in any given year), but it doesnt pay to do this since China has massively underperformed over the long run, so odds are it usually goes up when other markets are up i.e the investor doesnt get to sell it to invest in other worse performing markets too often.

China has been terrible for investors, I wish the MSCI EM index only had countries like Mexico, India, Brazil, etc in it.
My idea of rebalancing is not adding into markets which haven’t done well in this case China but to take the money out and park into a HY account or UST etc for redeployment when the opportunity presents itself.

I have also lost money in my China / HK investments about 12% however if I had not cut my losses, I would have been down almost 60% by now just like many others.
 

d5dude

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My idea of rebalancing is not adding into markets which haven’t done well in this case China but to take the money out and park into a HY account or UST etc for redeployment when the opportunity presents itself.

I have also lost money in my China / HK investments about 12% however if I had not cut my losses, I would have been down almost 60% by now just like many others.

Selling to maintain a pre-determined 60/40 (or whatever) allocation = rebalancing, selling a certain segment of one's portfolio to go into cash (which will inevitably change the allocation ratio) isnt rebalancing, its more like trading or active portfolio management.
 

churnmaster

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Selling to maintain a pre-determined 60/40 (or whatever) allocation = rebalancing, selling a certain segment of one's portfolio to go into cash (which will inevitably change the allocation ratio) isnt rebalancing, its more like trading or active portfolio management.
Ok you may call it as active portfolio management, for me it’s just securing my returns and slowly building over time.
 

revhappy

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Ok you may call it as active portfolio management, for me it’s just securing my returns and slowly building over time.
I am telling you man, you must start a hedge fund, you are wasting your talent, unless you are already an NRI private banking RM. Then I think you are in the right job 🤣
 

churnmaster

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I am telling you man, you must start a hedge fund, you are wasting your talent, unless you are already an NRI private banking RM. Then I think you are in the right job 🤣
Thanks for your advice.

I hope you never face the outcome I mentioned in the last para.
 

boringLife-

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I bought IWDA with my bonus in Jan at price of 88 then this year DCA 2801 HK at 22/21/19/18 now it is at 17 lol

My STI average cost price also like 3200

Even my MBH bond component bought in 2019 also showing losses of 10%. Hais really put in bank earn 0.05% better
 

limster

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I bought IWDA with my bonus in Jan at price of 88 then this year DCA 2801 HK at 22/21/19/18 now it is at 17 lol
Its ok to buy IWDA at 88 in Jan 2022, you just had to continue DCA as the price went down, so your average price should be much lower.

Just to quote myself from 2022:

I am also a risk averse investor, so I prefer to buy stocks that are undervalued, because the risk that they will go down is much less than the risk they will go up 😅

For example, as I have said, buying STI when it is under 3,000 to me is low risk and almost like free money, sure go back to 3,000.

However, low risk doesn't mean no risk. If STI is too risky for you, then buying IWDA under $75 may be a better example. It's a low risk purchase because it will go back to $80. 📈📈
 
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