CardUp (Do not post or ask for referral code)

[fone]

The infraction given to you answered the question for your reply.

Polersg asked for referral,

You responded

You are clearly posting referral via PM and open for further solicitation by replying and responding openly in the thread.

CardUp (Do Not post referral code

Please define "post" and "PM". How are they the same here?

Please also define "do not post" and "do not ask". How are they the same here?

Lastly, please define "post referral code" and "solicitation".

The definition of soliciting/solicitation:

By replying the request, member are drumming up referral.

Your reply half here half there. By stating this, you will need to bring out the T&Cs of the forum where soliciting is prohibited, otherwise your definition of soliciting is pointless.

Also, where does it says that the drumming up referral is prohibited?

 

[Perisher]

Since you have all have your go at this topic, I’m guessing everyone is clear on where commach stand on this issue. Let’s bring this issue to feedback forum if it needs any further clarification.

 

[vince123123]

I don't disagree with you. A asks, B replies and solicits for more referrals by his reply. A is the person needing the referral code. B is the person who has the referral code.
But I am referring to A asking, not B replying. Your focus is on B whilst mine is on A.

And I have never been in a position of A, only B, and it is B (and my warnings thereto) that you kept focusing on even though I am asking about A.

I think we shall move on since it is clear your answer to my "A asking" question is contained in #1151.

The definition of soliciting/solicitation:

By replying the request, member are drumming up referral.

 

[vince123123]

Thanks for chiming in. I would like to ask whether it was your position during your time as a moderator that "A asking" was also against the rules as I do not recall that to be your interpretation. Your position was that there was no posting of codes by B or B replying to a request for a code, but not against the A requesting per se.

I am not saying there cannot be a change in interpretation, but it seems like the commach is saying there was never a change. I also do realise the inherently difficult position you are now being placed in now that he is a mod and you are an ex-mod but if you can find an elegant way to give your inputs without stepping on toes, I am sure we would also appreciate it.

Thanks again

Since you have all have your go at this topic, I’m guessing everyone is clear on where commach stand on this issue. Let’s bring this issue to feedback forum if it needs any further clarification.

 

[tiertime]

THIS MONTH,

This is the 2nd thread that cause me an infraction for sharing a referral when someone inquires for it ...

There was no warning giving on both occasions and feels like someone abusing their authority

so now is my infraction going to stay there forever in my account / whats going to happen ? i dun even know how the infraction works...

making so many ppl unhappy at the start of a weekend...

its a way of telling us hwz forum not lacking members now right

 

[vince123123]

One second, are you saying you received an infraction because you sent a PM? Or was it done in an open post?

THIS MONTH,

This is the 2nd thread that cause me an infraction for sharing a referral when someone inquires for it ...

There was no warning giving on both occasions and feels like someone abusing their authority

so now is my infraction going to stay there forever in my account / whats going to happen ? i dun even know how the infraction works...

making so many ppl unhappy at the start of a weekend...

its a way of telling us hwz forum not lacking members now right

 

[Purplestars]

Since you have all have your go at this topic, I’m guessing everyone is clear on where commach stand on this issue. Let’s bring this issue to feedback forum if it needs any further clarification.

I have no problem with his stand. If asking for a code via PM and offering it through PM is not allowed, that's fair enough and I can accept that.

But this new guy doesn't even communicate that to us, he just comes in as starts infracting to make his presence felt. This isn't edmw, everyone here is reasonable and smart. If we were told this isn't allowed it will easily be stopped. Somehow this simple option hasn't crossed his mind.

An analogy would be the government saying that riding PMDs on pavements is illegal, and started fining people who have ridden on PMDs on the pavements 3 months ago. That is such BS and should not be tolerated.

 

[Trazora]

Btw how do one know he got infracted? what does infraction mean to the account?

 

[vince123123]

Under our legal system, it is an extremely rare situation where laws have retrospective effect, especially those with a criminal nature. Even laws with a civil or regulatory nature seldom have retrospective effect as well.

To be clear, I am not making any comment in relation to how the moderator is doing his job here, since that is within his purview and authority, but just an observation about the legal landscape in Singapore.

An analogy would be the government saying that riding PMDs on pavements is illegal, and started fining people who have ridden on PMDs on the pavements 3 months ago. That is such BS and should not be tolerated.

 

[tiertime]

One second, are you saying you received an infraction because you sent a PM? Or was it done in an open post?

first time someone asked for a link and i sent the referral link to the product that he asked for by quoting his post and hit reply ,

2nd time someone asked for referral code and i PMed him my referral codes, and replyed in the thread to ask him to check his PM...

but what does it matter... since both ppl have inquired for it, i wouldnt have given any response if no one inquired for it in the first place

 

[Purplestars]

Just for clarification, I am not the one giving you the infraction

1. I am not in charge of this section
2. Infractions sent will be under my nick

I do not know what's your beef with me when clearly I have no idea what is going on.

O

This is a reference to the actions you have taken in the past, and not in this thread. You have been on power abuse trips when you first got your moderator status and became highly unpopular. This new guy is going through the same phase.

 

[vince123123]

Heh you are model citizen, never got before.

Btw how do one know he got infracted? what does infraction mean to the account?

Based on my previous experience administering vbulletin forums, infractions usually involve some sort of point based system where accumulating a certain number of points (much like a traffic offence demerit points system) would result in certain consequences, say suspension, banning, unable to post etc. A warning is essentially a 0-point infraction.
Infractions and warnings are usually notified in the form of a PM from the person giving the infraction to the person receiving it together with a record in the system. I believe that's how it happens here as well.

 

[vince123123]

Well I can see why the moderators might be interested in regulating the content of open posts which they feel would have a negative impact on the forums, but I am surprised if PMs are the subject of infractions (if they didn't come with an open post in the thread to check - for which the position taken by the mods is that it amounts to a disguised solicitation).

first time someone asked for a link and i sent the referral link to the product that he asked for by quoting his post and hit reply ,

2nd time someone asked for referral code and i PMed him my referral codes, and replyed in the thread to ask him to check his PM...

but what does it matter... since both ppl have inquired for it, i wouldnt have given any response if no one inquired for it in the first place

 

[Ottoke]

This is a reference to the actions you have taken in the past, and not in this thread. You have been on power abuse trips when you first got your moderator status and became highly unpopular. This new guy is going through the same phase.

As far as I know commach is a very old moderator from the early days of HWZ and far more senior than anyone of us in the current team. So I don't really know if the new guy you referring to is him. I also do not know how he moderates too.

Yes I do make mistakes in the past, that is all in the past, I am also a mere human like anyone else. Admin has already advised me. I am aware of my unpopularity. So it's been years, I think we should just... take a break.

The SOP of every forum section is that if there are any questions and issues we should just take it to the feedback forum.

/out

O

 

[tiertime]

Well I can see why the moderators might be interested in regulating the content of open posts which they feel would have a negative impact on the forums, but I am surprised if PMs are the subject of infractions (if they didn't come with an open post in the thread to check - for which the position taken by the mods is that it amounts to a disguised solicitation).

it would have worked just as well if they could have notified us openly like civilised ppl (so that other ppl can also see it and commit the same thing),

but they chose to slapp us in private with some infraction all of a sudden , it is so rude and unnecessary

As far as I know commach is a very old moderator from the early days of HWZ and far more senior than anyone of us in the current team. So I don't really know if the new guy you referring to is him. I also do not know how he moderates too.

Yes I do make mistakes in the past, that is all in the past, I am also a mere human like anyone else. Admin has already advised me. I am aware of my unpopularity. So it's been years, I think we should just... take a break.

The SOP of every forum section is that if there are any questions and issues we should just take it to the feedback forum.

/out

O

dun dwell on it too much, i do not know who u r and wat mistakes u made coz its the first time i see ur avatar lol

 

[chonpo]

Hi, I am a new comer, received a referrer code and some tips from a senior and managed to use CC to receive the rebate, just to share it works!

 

[oceanicmanta]

Hi, I am a new comer, received a referrer code and some tips from a senior and managed to use CC to receive the rebate, just to share it works!

could this be seen as "solicitation" as well saying that referral code works ??

 

[vince123123]

That was precisely the point I was trying to make at #1160 as I was trying to say that the focus should not be on my personal state of knowledge (which was being focused on) but to try to let everyone know what the position is and its rationale. That would allow for a better understanding of the rules for everyone, including those who may come into the thread much later.

it would have worked just as well if they could have notified us openly like civilised ppl (so that other ppl can also see it and commit the same thing),

but they chose to slapp us in private with some infraction all of a sudden , it is so rude and unnecessary

I don't think the folks here are questioning his seniority or authority and the reference to "new" is merely one which refers to his "newness" as far as being a moderator in this forum is concerned.

Having said that, sometimes someone being a very old moderator and being very senior also runs the risk of being jaded and "It's the same type of thing again like what I have dealt with before in some other forum" and then adopting what worked for the other forum with this forum. Now I don't know if that is true or not, and it is mere speculation but the risk of being jaded is something that every arbiter has to be aware of. That is why there are rules of evidence as to how similar fact evidence should be treated so that they do not prejudice the trier of fact.

It is also suggested that sometimes, in order to ensure compliance, it is not always about who has the biggest stick, but who is able to win the hearts and minds of the people being governed or as they say, 以德服人. Whilst there is no clear right or wrong between which modes of governance to adopt, it is my respectful view that the latter method would achieve a more sustainable and longer-lasting effect than the former.

As far as I know commach is a very old moderator from the early days of HWZ and far more senior than anyone of us in the current team. So I don't really know if the new guy you referring to is him. I also do not know how he moderates too.

Yes I do make mistakes in the past, that is all in the past, I am also a mere human like anyone else. Admin has already advised me. I am aware of my unpopularity. So it's been years, I think we should just... take a break.

The SOP of every forum section is that if there are any questions and issues we should just take it to the feedback forum.

/out

O

 

[vince123123]

According to the recent ruling, it would appear that it might very well be an arguable case, depending on which side you are standing on.

Standing on the side of "Allow it", it can be argued that there is nothing in the message as written that says he is asking for a code (since he already got one) nor are there any statements saying that he is offering a referral code.

Standing on the side of "Ban it", it can argued that the message implies that he is now a member of Cardup and since he is now a member of Cardup, he also has 10 referral codes that he can now give to people and anyone who wants to enjoy the same thing he had, should message him to ask for one.

It is all about the perspective and which case you are trying to stand for. It would then be for the decision maker to adopt a position and hopefully explain the reasoning behind it. And that's why we have lawyers and judges still in business .

could this be seen as "solicitation" as well saying that referral code works ??

 

[highsulphur]

The title clearly stated " Do not post referral code", isn't this clear enough not to post, solicit or abetting referral?

What type of warning you need to understand the term (Do not post referral code). Are you trying to justify you're right when drug trafficking are seriously deal with and you post in the public forum you have drugs for sale and expect nothing happen to you?

There are 4 clone accounts killed, 1 p-banned for mass spamming referral, warning for 8 members and infraction for 6 members. Do I need to give everyone an official warning/infraction as a form of reminder?

Since when is a post 'pm you....' considered 'posting, soliciting or abetting referral'?

Did you read my pm to the other person? How did you know the content?