CPF vs SRS advice

BBCWatcher

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One other point that a lot of people miss - if later you decide to spend some or all of your retirement outside Singapore, even across the causeway - you may end up paying a minimum of the non-resident tax rate (currently 15%) on 50% of each SRS withdrawal, effectively 7.5% minimum.

For someone contributing $10,000 and saving $700 on the way in, and let’s say that grows to $20,000 by age 65, you’d end up paying $1,500 on the way out. You may have been better off outside SRS.
No, not generally. The non-resident tax rate applies to foreigners living outside Singapore. This rate would never apply to Singaporean citizens who maintain their citizenships, which includes the vast majority of this forum's readers.

Beyond that, some or all of this income tax paid to IRAS could be recoverable via offsetting foreign tax credits in the country of retirement residence (or of status in the case of U.S. persons). Circumstances vary, of course, but it's rather likely.
 

celtosaxon

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No, not generally. The non-resident tax rate applies to foreigners living outside Singapore. This rate would never apply to Singaporean citizens who maintain their citizenships, which includes the vast majority of this forum's readers.

Beyond that, some or all of this income tax paid to IRAS could be recoverable via offsetting foreign tax credits in the country of retirement residence (or of status in the case of U.S. persons). Circumstances vary, of course, but it's rather likely.

Here is what IRAS says:

Income tax rates depend on an individual's tax residency status. You will be treated as a tax resident for a particular Year of Assessment (YA) if you are a:

Singapore Citizen (SC) or Singapore Permanent Resident (SPR) who resides in Singapore except for temporary absences.

—————

I read that as “you must reside in Singapore except for temporary absences” in order to be considered a tax resident of Singapore.
 

BBCWatcher

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The OP mentioned being in their 20’s and consideration against other financial goals like home ownership. In that situation I would prioritize on home ownership over topping up MA or SRS for 7% tax relief, especially if HDB subsidies were in play - those can potentially disappear as I progress in my career. Even if I had no partner, I would want to be ready if and when the time comes, or worst case, when I turn 35. Once my home ownership goal was secure, I would then look at MA top ups next, and SRS last.
No, I disagree. This is not the smartest play, not in the way you've described it.

Let's suppose your home purchase goal is to get a HDB BTO at age 36 as a single individual. Let's assume that's a round 10 years from now. Yes, you'll need a down payment for that HDB BTO consisting of cash and/or CPF OA funds depending on how you buy it, but let's assume 20% down in cash and 5% in OA. All true, but you need that down payment 10 years from now! It doesn't automatically follow that you zero out all tax advantaged MA, SA, and SRS account top ups/voluntary contributions today. That's not how this math works. Indeed, it rarely works that way.

If you carry your argument to its logical conclusion, you'd NEVER put money toward a long-term savings goal when you have any short-term savings goals. "Oh my gosh, I have to pay next year's electric bills" is NOT a good reason to zero out all long-term savings vehicles, including the tax advantaged ones.

I made the equivalent of SRS account contributions quite a bit before age 26 (my age assumption above) and I had shorter-term savings goals, too. I did both, and this was all quite wise.

401(k) programs normally include an employer match - if such a situation existed, I would definitely prioritize on that ahead of home ownership.
Yes, and MA, SA, and SRS have tax relief associated with them, currently in the 7% tax bracket. That's still free money available for the taking, free money that can go toward a down payment on a home, too. You run the numbers according to a realistic planning model and see how it works out.
 
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BBCWatcher

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Income tax rates depend on an individual's tax residency status. You will be treated as a tax resident for a particular Year of Assessment (YA) if you are a:

Singapore Citizen (SC) or Singapore Permanent Resident (SPR) who resides in Singapore except for temporary absences.
There might be a comma missing there, after the "or," but I have to dig deeper to figure it out.
 

BBCWatcher

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There might be a comma missing there, after the "or," but I have to dig deeper to figure it out.
OK, I dug a little deeper.... "I don't know." ;) Singaporean citizens are definitely not subject to tax withholding on qualified SRS withdrawals, but are non-resident Singaporean citizens subject to the 15% minimum non-resident tax rate instead of progressive rates below that? That part is really hard to figure out. I could see why IRAS might want/need that 15% minimum rate to apply also to overseas Singaporeans, so let's assume it does....

This aspect is still largely academic, though, I think it's fair to say. Non-resident Singaporean citizens would only pay any tax to IRAS when their Singapore taxable income exceeds the $40,000 per year that can be withdrawn from a SRS (as a qualified withdrawal) at zero tax. And they still might very well qualify for a foreign tax credit in their country of residence. And, if they want to reduce or eliminate the tax to IRAS, they can still buy a single premium life annuity from Manulife to push the annual payout down below or closer to $40,000/year and stretch out the 10 year qualified withdrawal window. All in all it's going be very rare indeed for Singaporean citizens to be paying as high as 15% (which is actually 7.5%) tax on their SRS withdrawals.
 

celtosaxon

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Let's suppose your home purchase goal is to get a HDB BTO at age 36 as a single individual. Let's assume that's a round 10 years from now. Yes, you'll need a down payment for that HDB BTO consisting of cash and/or CPF OA funds depending on how you buy it, but let's assume 20% down in cash and 5% in OA. All true, but you need that down payment 10 years from now! It doesn't automatically follow that you zero out all tax advantaged MA, SA, and SRS account top ups/voluntary contributions today. That's not how this math works. Indeed, it rarely works that way.

Yes, and MA, SA, and SRS have tax relief associated with them, currently in the 7% tax bracket. That's still free money available for the taking, free money that can go toward a down payment on a home, too. You run the numbers according to a realistic planning model and see how it works out.

Maybe it’s just me, but when I was in my 20’s, a high 3 digit / low 4 digit annual tax savings would not be nearly enough to secure my home ownership goals, even after 10 years.

On the other hand, keeping my 5 digit annual savings invested in unrestricted accounts would allow me the flexibility to cover more scenarios, including keeping it invested for the long-term.
 

dork32

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Maybe it’s just me, but when I was in my 20’s, a high 3 digit / low 4 digit annual tax savings would not be nearly enough to secure my home ownership goals, even after 10 years.

On the other hand, keeping my 5 digit annual savings invested in unrestricted accounts would allow me the flexibility to cover more scenarios, including keeping it invested for the long-term.

it is not just you. i am also like that. i really needed cash for the first 10 years when i started working. i needed cash not just for housing, i needed it for car, wedding dinner, honeymoon, kid's child care....

It is in my late 30s that i start to accumulate some wealth for myself. it is until my 40s that i am confident enough for things like srs, by that time, i have already hit frs, so cpf top out is out
 

reddevil0728

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is it confirmation bias or facts?

CENTRAL Provident Fund (CPF) members will continue to receive the 4 per cent minimum interest rate for their Special, MediSave and Retirement Account (SMRA) monies for another year, until December 31, 2021.
https://www.businesstimes.com.sg/go...erest-rates-extended-by-a-year-to-dec-31-2021

so is it likely that CPF interest rate to increase or decrease after current rates expire? :s12:

Nothing being said about SRS doesn't mean it is going to stay the same right?

If you realise, I am not actually advocating for anyone in particular. in fact i am suggesting a more balanced approach.

i.e. if you want to put something, split it between CPF and SRS.

If you really don't want CPF, then i would rather hold it as cash and invest than to put into SRS.
 

xiaosinsinful

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I think that's way too presumptuous! Did I miss information on the thread starter's home buying intentions (if any), and whether the thread starter (and spouse/partner?) would find it particularly difficult to muster a down payment if not for $X topped up now to MA, SA, and/or a SRS account?

I don't know the thread starter's precise age, but it's highly likely I contributed to both a 401(k) plan and an IRA -- these are very similar to SRS accounts -- much earlier than his current age. And that was a very wise decision in my circumstances.

lets assume , TS is in his late 20s, say age 27. what would you do if you where in his shoes? not getting married anytime soon. maybe planning to get a place in 8 years time? wont the monthly CPF contribution for 8-10 years be able to cover the down payment required? also assuming TS is not a total dumbass that spends 100% of his earnings on clubbing/ other non essential stuff, he would have a sizeable cash savings no?
 
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xiaosinsinful

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The OP mentioned being in their 20’s and consideration against other financial goals like home ownership. In that situation I would prioritize on home ownership over topping up MA or SRS for 7% tax relief, especially if HDB subsidies were in play - those can potentially disappear as I progress in my career. Even if I had no partner, I would want to be ready if and when the time comes, or worst case, when I turn 35. Once my home ownership goal was secure, I would then look at MA top ups next, and SRS last.

401(k) programs normally include an employer match - if such a situation existed, I would definitely prioritize on that ahead of home ownership.

However, SRS is more similar to a Traditional IRA, but with one major difference... with SRS you opt-in to pay potential future taxes on growth that would otherwise be tax free outside of an SRS. For that reason, I don’t find it as compelling as an IRA, especially for younger people in lower tax brackets.

very valid analysis. in other words, pay the 7% and keep cash liquid is your suggestion?

Maybe it’s just me, but when I was in my 20’s, a high 3 digit / low 4 digit annual tax savings would not be nearly enough to secure my home ownership goals, even after 10 years.

On the other hand, keeping my 5 digit annual savings invested in unrestricted accounts would allow me the flexibility to cover more scenarios, including keeping it invested for the long-term.

it is not just you. i am also like that. i really needed cash for the first 10 years when i started working. i needed cash not just for housing, i needed it for car, wedding dinner, honeymoon, kid's child care....

It is in my late 30s that i start to accumulate some wealth for myself. it is until my 40s that i am confident enough for things like srs, by that time, i have already hit frs, so cpf top out is out

ahhh, thanks for the valuable insight for what is to come and what to prepare for. good points not to lock up the cash. maybe just pay the tax and keep cash liquid for upcoming finances that is to come.
 
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BBCWatcher

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Maybe it’s just me, but when I was in my 20’s, a high 3 digit / low 4 digit annual tax savings would not be nearly enough to secure my home ownership goals, even after 10 years.
You weren't a Singaporean citizen with a Housing Development Board and forced savings from employment income, were you? ;)

On the other hand, keeping my 5 digit annual savings invested in unrestricted accounts would allow me the flexibility to cover more scenarios, including keeping it invested for the long-term.
OK, but have you noticed the market interest rates lately? ;)

lets assume , TS is in his late 20s, say age 27. what would you do if you where in his shoes? not getting married anytime soon. maybe planning to get a place in 8 years time? wont the monthly CPF contribution for 8-10 years be able to cover the down payment required? also assuming TS is not a total dumbass that spends 100% of his earnings on clubbing/ other non essential stuff, he would have a sizeable cash savings no?
Yes, precisely.

You mentioned you're in the 7% tax bracket, so I'm going to assume something like $5,500/month of gross income from employment, or $66,000/year. (That'll be knocked down to a lower chargeable income but will probably still be in the 7% bracket.) That'll also mean compulsory employment-related CPF contributions of $24,420 per year, of which about 62% currently flows into your CPF Ordinary Account -- ~$15,140/year.

Very roughly, after 8 years, that'll mean ~$135,500 in your Ordinary Account. Then you go buy your 2 room HDB BTO under the Singles Scheme (if you wish). Let's assume for sake of argument your $5,500/month income doesn't increase but you don't qualify for the HDB concessionary loan (currently at a $7,000/month income limit). Obviously this isn't realistic, but let's go with this ultra pessimistic assumption. You'll then need a 25% down payment for your bank loan financed 2 room HDB BTO, of which 20% can be from CPF OA. If $135,500 represents 20% of the 2 room HDB BTO, that's a $677,500 flat even if you don't qualify for any grants. (You'll need 5%, or $33,875 in 2028 dollars, in cash -- easier to do when you're getting tax relief from the 7% tax bracket along the way.)

Do you think there's a $677,500 2 room HDB BTO flat available for sale in 2028? I don't. In 2020 there are some ~$150K 2 room BTOs, but $677K in 2028? Highly, highly doubtful.

See how this works? You create a model then test it. And it turns out that if your plan is to buy a 2 room HDB BTO at age 35+ under the Singles Scheme, and you're age 27 today and in the 7% tax bracket (even on the low side of it), you should be utterly awash in funds available for a down payment at age 35+.(*) So it should be perfectly fine, even better than fine, to win some tax relief with MA, SA, and/or SRS account voluntary contributions/top ups. Simply construct a forecast model, run the numbers, and see what they look like. Then run some "What if?" forecasts.

Yes, I created such forecast models and ran them even before age 27. Yes, I concluded that it was eminently sensible to make both 401(k) and IRA contributions in my circumstances, and to their maximums actually. Those vehicles are conceptually equivalent to SRS account contributions. N.B. Both 401(k) and IRA contributions, meaning employer matching funds were obviously nice but the model suggested they weren't necessary to make the case for those contributions, even with shorter-term savings objectives, and in my particular circumstances. You can often financially walk and chew gum at the same time, so to speak, and it's lovely when you can.

Anyway, hopefully you get the basic point, that when you're trying to converge on a target outcome (have enough for a home down payment, plus a little more for renovation and moving in, plus maintenance of emergency reserve) 8+ years hence, you create a plan to converge on that target outcome. You don't need to overshoot that target outcome. Surpluses above your 8+ year goal can and should be saved and invested in longer-term oriented ways. Build the model, tweak it, and let it speak. "Don't assume."

(*) If this is what your model shows, then it also means you should transfer some OA dollars to SA. Ideally you transfer all those OA dollars until you reach the point in time where you will start to need them to get ready for your down payment, because that way you earn more 4% interest earlier, which means you're wealthier than if you try to hold OA as OA now, then start transferring surpluses later. Check my math on that, but I'm pretty sure that's what you'll find.
 
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Nofear40

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Critical to buy health insurance when one is young. I regretted not topping up MA to enjoy tax savings and use MA to buy hospitalisation insurance when I am much younger. Now I need to exclude this and that
 

xiaosinsinful

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If you don’t want cpf and only want SRS, I’ll go for cash.

I think SRS is not worth it.


Yes, From the other views, I would say I’m leaning to cash at the moment given that the tax bracket is on the lower end and TS might be aiming for some bigger goals in life
 

reddevil0728

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Yes, From the other views, I would say I’m leaning to cash at the moment given that the tax bracket is on the lower end and TS might be aiming for some bigger goals in life
Huh TS might be aiming for some bigger goals in life???

You talking about yourself?
 

s0crates

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SRS for retirement for sure.

The obsession of not paying tax at retirement is insane. Growing wealth tremendously with a long investment horizon with tax savings and paying tax later on is not a problem.

A lot of points shared doesn't resonate with me, especially around RSTU. People DAMN LUCKY cpf didn't reduce SA rates this year ok, still want to put your retirement money at the mercy of garment. Hais.
 

reddevil0728

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SRS for retirement for sure.

The obsession of not paying tax at retirement is insane. Growing wealth tremendously with a long investment horizon with tax savings and paying tax later on is not a problem.

A lot of points shared doesn't resonate with me, especially around RSTU. People DAMN LUCKY cpf didn't reduce SA rates this year ok, still want to put your retirement money at the mercy of garment. Hais.
the same can be said for the obsession of not paying tax now is insane too
 

SBC

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the same can be said for the obsession of not paying tax now is insane too

Had supported too much CPF top up during my early years of working.

Switched to both CPF top & SRS at later stage when income is higher.

Had too much PTR after marriage. Had stopped SRS in the recent years so as to utilize my PTR.
 

celtosaxon

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For me, using CPF OA for home ownership would be plan B.

Let me just clarify, when I say “investing” outside CPF, I am talking about 100% equities.

If things go well, it will give me plenty of options*, if not, I will have plenty of time to hold until recovery - and in the mean time, there’s always plan B.

* one of those options is to convert OA to SA if I don’t need the money

I still believe that saving 7% tax just wouldn’t be worth it compared to the potential upside.
 
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