(GPGT)Espresso machine hoot

[testerjp]

can I check if anyone uses UHT milk instead of fresh milk for their cafe latte?
Any significant difference btw fresh vs UHT? Tks

In China, there's no fresh milk, even starbucks use UHT.
The taste is totally off.

 

[Smoothy]

Thinking of buying the Niche Zero grinder.

Where do you guys get it? Directly from the website?

more are there any local distro for this?

Same challenge here. Were you able to find a local seller? I approached brew ratio and highlander, and apparently niche only do direct.

I've checked out niche's site and i think the price is going to be about SGD$1k, but apparently it would be subjected to GST.

If you're still interested maybe we can order together, see if can get any savings on shipping. PM me if interested.

Edit: Nevermind, due to high demand, they only allow 1 order per customer. haha.

 

[DriftKing]

hi guys, any tutorial on making espresso? or is it purely trial and error?

just starting out, using my brother's expobar leva and mignon grinder

Youtube guides are the best reference. 18g in, 2x liquid out in around 20+ to 30+sec as a start-out reference too. Visual observation during extraction (if you have naked PF), even if you have a dual sprout, check for consistency of flow.

Of course the key is, if the shot / drink taste good, which is above all the above. After that the variation comes down to only grind size, and type of beans, and extraction time.

 

[DriftKing]

I have a j max hand grinder.. But wonder if I should get a niche or Eureka Mignon Specialita like one of the bro mention here?
Or should I stick with the j max?
I usually make like not more than 5 cups per day with 18g of beans to grind each time...

Yikes.. I only do 1 cup per day... and I just got the Kafatek Monolith MC4... so nothing is ever overkill.

 

[Smoothy]

Yikes.. I only do 1 cup per day... and I just got the Kafatek Monolith MC4... so nothing is ever overkill.

I beg to differ.

With coffee, the well known rule is the diminishing returns. any grinders in the 2+k range will net you VERY personal/subjective benefits... like... separation... clarity... some calls it coffee snobbery... whatever... i'm not saying it's ********, it's just very very subjective. and at those range - we're talking HEAVY DUTY grinders meant to handle heavy workload, usually in a professional setting, and also as a ornamental piece as well. So, i wouldn't say it's a clear cut "NOT" an overkill for a home setting. It all depends.

You have the Monolith is simply because you can, you choose to shell out the money because either you have a large disposable income (rich), or you simply choose to allocate more budget to this hobby.

For us mere mortals, like mamboeidos, we are trying to justify - i make quite a lot of coffee a day... multiply by number of days and months and years... maybe spending abit more on the equipment isn't that bad at all... as opposed to if only 1 cup - yeah, thats definitely an overkill. And then theres the matter of... can we really tell the difference?

Source: Exactly in the same situation with Mambo, am considering between Niche Zero or Lagom P64.

 

[DriftKing]

I beg to differ.

With coffee, the well known rule is the diminishing returns. any grinders in the 2+k range will net you VERY personal/subjective benefits... like... separation... clarity... some calls it coffee snobbery... whatever... i'm not saying it's ********, it's just very very subjective. and at those range - we're talking HEAVY DUTY grinders meant to handle heavy workload, usually in a professional setting, and also as a ornamental piece as well. So, i wouldn't say it's a clear cut "NOT" an overkill for a home setting. It all depends.

You have the Monolith is simply because you can, you choose to shell out the money because either you have a large disposable income (rich), or you simply choose to allocate more budget to this hobby.

For us mere mortals, like mamboeidos, we are trying to justify - i make quite a lot of coffee a day... multiply by number of days and months and years... maybe spending abit more on the equipment isn't that bad at all... as opposed to if only 1 cup - yeah, thats definitely an overkill. And then theres the matter of... can we really tell the difference?

Source: Exactly in the same situation with Mambo, am considering between Niche Zero or Lagom P64.

Well .. he didn't specify if he has any budget constraint, there isn't a scope of limitations as well and doesnt seem to have an upper limit. it's for all to speculate. I also not sure what kind of suggestions he would prefer to hear, but since he sets out to get an upgrade to an electric grinder.. I gave my 2c and that's it. Would we rather tell him that stick to what you have, don't waste any more money because you have a chance of not tasting a difference and it's not worth it? I never say must follow me to get a kafatek, just saying for his use case, there are people out there (like myself) has much lower usage and still go for the upgrade.

So for your case.. what do you want to hear or know more between Lagom or niche? Would you want to hear that maybe can't tell a difference between flat or conical burr so just get the one cheaper ?( If budget is a concern), I would choose the Lagom just because it looks better (if looks a concern). Or lagi best, save the money because mere mortal 1+k is also a stretch and should not be justified to spend more, just get pre ground and just deal with it ?

 

[mamboeidos]

No worries liking at NZ so maybe that is the cap unless by shelling out 100 or 200 more can get me much better grinder.

Thinking of getting an electric grinder becos after getting the j max recently to replace my hario I find that

1. Grind faster
2. There is better indication of grind setting. While sailing in the bean I went wrong direction n only 100g later realised I grind finer when I was looking to grind corser lol.
3. Work flow... Hand grinder after grind have to find a place to put it down etc. Electric grinder fix location.

But u might think that u have already answered myself but all the above I can also make do.

Just that is it worth it? Cos when I buy things I also look at the long run like do I need to upgrade or change it 2-3 yrs down the road or is the end game?

Just like when getting my machine I was looking at mara x but in the end got a bianca cos it goes a long way and I do not have to worry about eat upgrades I need to do on the machine

 

[DriftKing]

No worries liking at NZ so maybe that is the cap unless by shelling out 100 or 200 more can get me much better grinder.

Thinking of getting an electric grinder becos after getting the j max recently to replace my hario I find that

1. Grind faster
2. There is better indication of grind setting. While sailing in the bean I went wrong direction n only 100g later realised I grind finer when I was looking to grind corser lol.
3. Work flow... Hand grinder after grind have to find a place to put it down etc. Electric grinder fix location.

But u might think that u have already answered myself but all the above I can also make do.

Just that is it worth it? Cos when I buy things I also look at the long run like do I need to upgrade or change it 2-3 yrs down the road or is the end game?

Just like when getting my machine I was looking at mara x but in the end got a bianca cos it goes a long way and I do not have to worry about eat upgrades I need to do on the machine

Smoothy does brings a good point on diminishing returns on anything higher end, for grinder, my approach was to eliminate the upgraditis and to check out what's the deal with these grinders (does it really elevate the taste, makes things easier etc, or worse it's serious placebo effect).

I was using the Eureka zenith 65e, I did a back to back comparison with the Monolith (not seasoned, until now I've only manage to run through 250g...), The cuppa from the Eureka actually gave a more pronounced taste than the Monolith, could be due to it being seasoned, or it is really not what I'd expecting, can't be sure for now. I am really interested to try a Ditting Lab Sweet (please anyone has it here?) And see how it makes literal sweet shots.

I think for your current choices, 64mm burrs or the Niche places well, even if you 'upgrade' to higher end espresso machines down the road. Can't really fault both, like I mentioned, I prefer Lagom cleaner look. Niche looked amateurish (not it's performance mind you). I think the next budget level is the Weber Key grinder or the larger Lagom.

Good to eliminate the gear issue so that it won't restrict you on your coffee journey, make the process enjoyable, that's what makes this hobby great. A good electric grinder will definitly makes things alot easier and more comparable to imitate a commercial setting (like a mini cafe).

 

[mamboeidos]

Smoothy does brings a good point on diminishing returns on anything higher end, for grinder, my approach was to eliminate the upgraditis and to check out what's the deal with these grinders (does it really elevate the taste, makes things easier etc, or worse it's serious placebo effect).
I was using the Eureka zenith 65e, I did a back to back comparison with the Monolith (not seasoned, until now I've only manage to run through 250g...), The cuppa from the Eureka actually gave a more pronounced taste than the Monolith, could be due to it being seasoned, or it is really not what I'd expecting, can't be sure for now. I am really interested to try a Ditting Lab Sweet (please anyone has it here?) And see how it makes literal sweet shots.
I think for your current choices, 64mm burrs or the Niche places well, even if you 'upgrade' to higher end espresso machines down the road. Can't really fault both, like I mentioned, I prefer Lagom cleaner look. Niche looked amateurish (not it's performance mind you). I think the next budget level is the Weber Key grinder or the larger Lagom.
Good to eliminate the gear issue so that it won't restrict you on your coffee journey, make the process enjoyable, that's what makes this hobby great. A good electric grinder will definitly makes things alot easier and more comparable to imitate a commercial setting (like a mini cafe).

Previously I did consider the df64? But heard it is not that fine tune n unless u like to thinker around if not better dun get....

Also ya I am trying to get to the point where u will need alot of money to exp a bit more of the experience u receive.

So just trying to find the sweet spot

 

[DriftKing]

Previously I did consider the df64? But heard it is not that fine tune n unless u like to thinker around if not better dun get....

Also ya I am trying to get to the point where u will need alot of money to exp a bit more of the experience u receive.

So just trying to find the sweet spot

I didn't mention the DF64.. for it's price yes it's attractive, but from how I feel about your current choice, best to stick with either the Lagom or the Niche. I think they are much better built and less fussy, unless you like tinkering. Why I mention the Weber Key and the larger Lagom is so you can compare what's the next level of grinders in sight and see if you are missing out.

 

[Smoothy]

It seems like i'm in a very similar place with mambo so i feel your dilemma. My next upgrade has to be a grinder, and have largely been deciding between DF64, NZ and Eureka Oro. Let me share my dillema, no answer yet.,..

Almost pulled the trigger on the Oro, but decided not to since the first gen oro seems more hastily designed (modified) product to try to grab the single-dose space...

So it's down to DF64 vs NZ. DF64 "wins" because of flat burrs. NZ wins because it's a very all-rounded and very "finished" product. DF loses because alot of tinkering needs to be done, whereas NZ is... finished. End of the day, i dropped the idea of DF because i just dun feel like tinkering with it, and the mess it makes seriously turns me off.

Then i thought about flat burrs, and the supposed goods, but then again - i don't have a sophisticated enough palate that is able to tell if a particular beans flew by sea or by air... and i strictly only do espresso and not pourovers... so... is the flat really needed?

Then it hit me again... but what if i do develop it (i hope not)?... so i'm looking at P64... with P64 i believe it'll be the endgame for me. with NZ i probably will always have the itch to upgrade again. P64 is about 2200 pre-gst, and NZ is 1000+ pre-gst, ordering straight from source...

Mambo - what are you gonna do?

On another note - does it really take 15-20 mins for the Bianca to warm up? how do u deal with the slow startup?

 

[mamboeidos]

It seems like i'm in a very similar place with mambo so i feel your dilemma. My next upgrade has to be a grinder, and have largely been deciding between DF64, NZ and Eureka Oro. Let me share my dillema, no answer yet.,..
Almost pulled the trigger on the Oro, but decided not to since the first gen oro seems more hastily designed (modified) product to try to grab the single-dose space...
So it's down to DF64 vs NZ. DF64 "wins" because of flat burrs. NZ wins because it's a very all-rounded and very "finished" product. DF loses because alot of tinkering needs to be done, whereas NZ is... finished. End of the day, i dropped the idea of DF because i just dun feel like tinkering with it, and the mess it makes seriously turns me off.
Then i thought about flat burrs, and the supposed goods, but then again - i don't have a sophisticated enough palate that is able to tell if a particular beans flew by sea or by air... and i strictly only do espresso and not pourovers... so... is the flat really needed?
Then it hit me again... but what if i do develop it (i hope not)?... so i'm looking at P64... with P64 i believe it'll be the endgame for me. with NZ i probably will always have the itch to upgrade again. P64 is about 2200 pre-gst, and NZ is 1000+ pre-gst, ordering straight from source...
Mambo - what are you gonna do?
On another note - does it really take 15-20 mins for the Bianca to warm up? how do u deal with the slow startup?

Df64 is out for me cos like u said have to alot of tinkering and I do not like the pressing of the rubber on top to clear out any leftover grind...

NZ I suppose solves all the issue unless same as ur case I start to develop a higher requirement of finer taste.

So from NZ to the next lvl is another 1k more? I would consider if I really need it and can I tell the diff and would that diff make or break or it can me over look

 

[DriftKing]

Df64 is out for me cos like u said have to alot of tinkering and I do not like the pressing of the rubber on top to clear out any leftover grind...

NZ I suppose solves all the issue unless same as ur case I start to develop a higher requirement of finer taste.

So from NZ to the next lvl is another 1k more? I would consider if I really need it and can I tell the diff and would that diff make or break or it can me over look

Actually, have you guys considered getting a good second hand unit of 64mm burr grinders, best is it's been swap with SSP burrs. I had tried SSP burr on the eureka before, even with some misalignment, it affected the shot ALOT (in a good way).

NZ is a finished end product, no need to think more about it. Seems the dilemma you guys have is reading too much.

Does the P64 has SSP burr? Also do consider the resell price of these things, you may not loose that much of you so decided to quit the game.

 

[mamboeidos]

Oh ya BTW I checked and yes 15m to be ready to pull the first shot after you on the machine.

Just timed it.

 

[Smoothy]

Actually, have you guys considered getting a good second hand unit of 64mm burr grinders, best is it's been swap with SSP burrs. I had tried SSP burr on the eureka before, even with some misalignment, it affected the shot ALOT (in a good way).

NZ is a finished end product, no need to think more about it. Seems the dilemma you guys have is reading too much.

Does the P64 has SSP burr? Also do consider the resell price of these things, you may not loose that much of you so decided to quit the game.

"dilemma is reading too much" exactly this... but ain't this a modern world problem we all face lol.

second hand unit - yes, have been checking carousell for that, but there's not alot going around. Granted my search scope isn't very wide since i don't know much about the other many exotic grinders around. I know the Erueka Specialita is rather well-reviewed... but it's not a single-dose (i know there're mods) but it has a smaller burr and etc... is an older model... so i'm not sold there.

yes, P64 comes delivered with SSP burrs. though personally, i'm not sure if i do need the ssp burrs. durability wise, i don't make 20 cups of espresso a day... and... i don't know enough to know that i need it... but anwyays, yes, the lagom comes with a choice of ssp burrs (unimodal, etc)

On resale - i'm not sure. whats your general feel? which brands/models are good in resale? then again, i don't think i'll ever quit coffee. PERHAPS lose the enthusiasm for espresso as a hobby, but will still need coffee... right? RIGHT?

 

[Smoothy]

Oh ya BTW I checked and yes 15m to be ready to pull the first shot after you on the machine.

Just timed it.

- this is the main reason i'm not pulling (yet) trigger on E61 grouphead machines... but Bianca is soooooooo beautiful.... and the flow profile - u pro at it yet?

 

[DriftKing]

"second hand unit - yes, have been checking carousell for that, but there's not alot going around.

On resale - i'm not sure. whats your general feel? which brands/models are good in resale? then again, i don't think i'll ever quit coffee. PERHAPS lose the enthusiasm for espresso as a hobby, but will still need coffee... right? RIGHT?

Before all these new waves of gears and stuff, we were all happy with the usual Mazzers used in the cafes. I had a doser Mazzers Mini before, and then a Mazzer Super Jolly E (I was using a E61 Diadema Junior Extra, a HX machine), very happy.

Resale I would think NZ would be the first choice, tbh, for your dilemma, read a little more and just get the NZ and see how it goes. Unless you find the additional benefit doesn't seem to justify the cost, anything higher end won't be included into consideration anyway.

 

[mamboeidos]

- this is the main reason i'm not pulling (yet) trigger on E61 grouphead machines... but Bianca is soooooooo beautiful.... and the flow profile - u pro at it yet?

Nope still messing around...

Even had trouble pulling decent shots...

Always get the acidity taste in my coffee when I switch beans....

For me 15mins is gd enough as I do not need to immediately jump into pulling the shot when I reach office

 

[Mason016]

Out of curiosity, after you’ve agonised over your grinder, will you even enjoy your espresso? I mean you have so many other variables to consider yes? Beans, how fine your grind is, weight, temperature, pressure, soft or hard water, flushing, how consistent you are etc. lol.
Your Bianca is sub 5k, wouldn’t a 1k + grinder be sufficient? I mean I make 5 shots a day, everyday and my relatively inexpensive eureka atom works with my Cremina.
Enjoy making and drinking your coffee, worry less about whether you missed out on the super once in a lifetime grinder that grinds the nectar of the immortals.

 

[Smoothy]

Out of curiosity, after you’ve agonised over your grinder, will you even enjoy your espresso? I mean you have so many other variables to consider yes? Beans, how fine your grind is, weight, temperature, pressure, soft or hard water, flushing, how consistent you are etc. lol.
Your Bianca is sub 5k, wouldn’t a 1k + grinder be sufficient? I mean I make 5 shots a day, everyday and my relatively inexpensive eureka atom works with my Cremina.
Enjoy making and drinking your coffee, worry less about whether you missed out on the super once in a lifetime grinder that grinds the nectar of the immortals.

I think the more pertinent question is - is it really an agony? If it is, then it's not a hobby, and i wouldn't be doing it anyways.

I enjoy my coffee now, alot. And honestly, after having done this for some time, puck prep and workflow becomes second nature, and one will come to a stage where the only other variables are raw materials and equipment. Which is what discussion is about, and the fun part of any hobby. so, do we enjoy our espresso? absolutely. am i stuck in a painful dilemma? maybe, but in a saddistic-enjoyable kinda of way.