(GPGT)Espresso machine hoot

[Lazy_Tiger]

I'm asking about the taste part.

Assume the extraction is within 25s to 30s.

And if one extract espresso whereby the bitterness and sourness is balanced or shall we sell within their personal taste spec. It's all good?

yes of course. Balance is key but never stop experimenting. brewing outside standard parameters may obtain results that may surprise and delight. I've tried extractions within 35-40 secs that are just as acceptable as those standard ones, both are balanced flavour wise but other factors like mouthfeel and intensity may be different.

25-30s is just a guideline. Your machine may have a auto preinfusion or may be an e-61 which only kicks in full pressure after 6 secs. Or it may be a simple silvia which has no preinfusion and pressure ramps up much faster.

 

[IntelFlash]

TBH, first thing you must first observe from the slayer video is, how much powder is the person using for a single espresso.

To have that much powder, it's not surprising to have a thick crema.
Actually i find that cheating and misleading. haha

Ask that fellow to show a video doing 7 to 8 grammes of coffee and you will see it running like a waterfall.

 

[IntelFlash]

BTW after a trip to Italy, where i see those baristas getting a thick flavourful shot so easily with just 7-8 grammes coffee.
I find that's really skillful and not easy.

 

[Lazy_Tiger]

TBH, first thing you must first observe from the slayer video is, how much powder is the person using for a single espresso.

To have that much powder, it's not surprising to have a thick crema.
Actually i find that cheating and misleading. haha

Ask that fellow to show a video doing 7 to 8 grammes of coffee and you will see it running like a waterfall.

bro that amount of crema is very normal. not what i consider to be thick and alot. you should see some extractions where the pour literally becomes a long cone due to the huge amt of gasses extracted out of the puck esp for newly roasted coffees.

The amount of coffee grounds used is not as much as u think. How to tell. look at the point where he tamps and how deep the tamper enters the basket. I would estimate around 18-20grms typical of an american style shot.

Achieving that same amt of crema during a flow from a single basket is easily achievable. Just grind finer. The only difference is that an ideal looking flow will end much earlier with a 7-8g dose unless....u are using a higher percentage of robusta! Most italian espresso blends do not use 100% arabicas. Thats why they can still get a nice crema with a single shot. Whether robusta is always bad to a blend is very debatable. There are some very high quality robustas available.

Anyway don't take the video too seriously. Its a PV and I'm sure there is post production, colour correction and repeated takes.
Anyone saw the dirty portafilter!?

 

[chikyblink]

The tiger striping pattern on the basket and mottling you see in the cup is almost perfect. You can see the shot is a ristretto which gets more pronounced mottling compared to regular 60ml double shot espresso.

I just realised something, ristrettos on my Lelit, mottling is rare. Even when it happens, its very faint.
On my HG One, I get mottling on almost every ristretto shot I pulled.

 

[Lazy_Tiger]

I just realised something, ristrettos on my Lelit, mottling is rare. Even when it happens, its very faint.
On my HG One, I get mottling on almost every ristretto shot I pulled.

interesting.is there any difference in the taste in the cup between the hg one and the lelit?

personally I found a good even flow and tiger striping + mottling often leads to a good balanced cup with less harsh elements for ristrettos.

see wbc 2007 champion and his take on tiger mottling and a good espresso grinder.

CoffeeGeek - Crema

 

[Lazy_Tiger]

anyway lets talk about what coffees we are drinking instead of always focusing on technique!

I'm currently drinking Stranger's reunion Chakra Blend. Easy to get a balanced ristretto with 15g and 18g basket. Pleasant oily mouthfeel. Can get very sour if the flow is too fast.

 

[chikyblink]

anyway lets talk about what coffees we are drinking instead of always focusing on technique!

I'm currently drinking Stranger's reunion Chakra Blend. Easy to get a balanced ristretto with 15g and 18g basket. Pleasant oily mouthfeel. Can get very sour if the flow is too fast.

wah just a few steps away from Highlander.

Finishing a pack of Ethiopian Yirgacheffe from Lam Yeo. $10.50. Single origin I know but for espresso it's pretty good. Pleasant non-bitter mouthfeel with mild acidity at the end. I'm beginning to appreciate acidity in my coffees. On my days off work, I aeropressed them to enjoy longer sips.

There's 2 versions at Lam Yeo. The one with 'red cherry' costs abt $15. And it's next on my list.

 

[IntelFlash]

bro that amount of crema is very normal. not what i consider to be thick and alot. you should see some extractions where the pour literally becomes a long cone due to the huge amt of gasses extracted out of the puck esp for newly roasted coffees.

The amount of coffee grounds used is not as much as u think. How to tell. look at the point where he tamps and how deep the tamper enters the basket. I would estimate around 18-20grms typical of an american style shot.

Achieving that same amt of crema during a flow from a single basket is easily achievable. Just grind finer. The only difference is that an ideal looking flow will end much earlier with a 7-8g dose unless....u are using a higher percentage of robusta! Most italian espresso blends do not use 100% arabicas. Thats why they can still get a nice crema with a single shot. Whether robusta is always bad to a blend is very debatable. There are some very high quality robustas available.

Anyway don't take the video too seriously. Its a PV and I'm sure there is post production, colour correction and repeated takes.
Anyone saw the dirty portafilter!?

18-20grammes is more than enough for me to make at least 2 cups. It's like espresso with corn starch.
I think you can certainly get texture. Flavour wise, not too sure but i did not find so.

Anyway is the very expensive machine slayer the main contributor to giving the good extraction or it's the 20 grammes doing the job?

1. What if we put 20 grammes on a normal E61 machine.
Will it be much worse than from a slayer?

2. Or a slayer using 7 grammes coffee.
Will it be a lot better than a normal e61?

But i think if i have to use 20 grammes of coffee, i have to reduce the grinding. Don't think it will flow through.

And that raise another question though.

If that's the case, if i have to reduce the grinding to use 20 grammes.
Won't it be better to use lesser powder and increase the grinding?

What's the difference in which brings out more flavour?
Let's put texture aside, since that contributes more to feel than taste.

 

[Lazy_Tiger]

18-20grammes is more than enough for me to make at least 2 cups. It's like espresso with corn starch.
I think you can certainly get texture. Flavour wise, not too sure but i did not find so.

Anyway is the very expensive machine slayer the main contributor to giving the good extraction or it's the 20 grammes doing the job?

1. What if we put 20 grammes on a normal E61 machine.
Will it be much worse than from a slayer?

2. Or a slayer using 7 grammes coffee.
Will it be a lot better than a normal e61?

But i think if i have to use 20 grammes of coffee, i have to reduce the grinding. Don't think it will flow through.

And that raise another question though.

If that's the case, if i have to reduce the grinding to use 20 grammes.
Won't it be better to use lesser powder and increase the grinding?

What's the difference in which brings out more flavour?
Let's put texture aside, since that contributes more to feel than taste.

Chill bro... read my posts carefully...... you are creating a strawman out of the whole discussion.

My initial proposition was never that the slayer is a super duper better machine compared to e61 types. The aim of that post with the video is to share beautiful tiger striping and to show active preinfusion at work on a slayer machine. However now that you seem to be diverting the topic, I could confidently say that the slayer is "better" for intrashot thermal stability and quite possibly intershot consistency especially for busier cafes compared to a E61 because of the saturated group head (Plus a host of other technicalities which I would not want to go into)

Yes...20 grams of grounds could get you 2 drinks....but they are espressos.... not the ristretto you saw in the video. If the slayer marketing team wanted to show that the slayer is capable of making espressos I'm sure they can. But obviously they do not want to do that because making a ristretto would more easily showcase a more pronounced tiger striping and mottling which for a greater visual effect for a promotional video....

WRT your qn on whether its the 20grms of espresso or the slayer machine doing the job of a good extraction, I would say that qn is irrelevant...."Good extraction" (Wat I think you mean is even extraction across the puck, your term good extraction is too general) can be achieved with most decent machines and dosage of 7-22grms. You need even distribution and correct particle range. I would even dare to venture and say that a good quality filter basket and some kind of preinfusion (vs immediate exposure to 9bar) is beneficial.
So.....is it the 20grms or the slayer machine thats makes the extraction in the video looks so even? Irrelevant.

The more important qn is...how does it taste which you somewhat alluded in your subsequent qns. Honestly I don't know cos I have never tested a slayer. What interested me in the slayer and some synessos is the controllable preinfusion you see. It is an interesting variable to play with to try and coax the most desirable elements from the puck into the cup and I think will be a essential tool to a skilled barista in the future. Giving the barista the added capability to vary the pressure is like giving an artist or engineer a tool to create something better greater which he possibly could not previously because of the technical limitations in his instruments. You can also control pressure with a lever machine but I personally do not like it because it is not precise and will add too many uncontrolled variables when trying to experiment with new blends and trying to get the best elements out of the bean.

20grams of coffee will flow...you just need to adjust your grind and use the correct sized filter baskets for this. I recommend VST because they have done their homework to calibrate their baskets to match a grind size that will produce a drink that will have an acceptable extraction yield and total dissolved solids to make a good espresso. VST is the same company sells refractometers and software to measure extraction yield and total dissolved solids in coffee.

Those who have followed this thread will know that I generally favour a 18g dose into a 25-30ml ristretto at between 25-30s. Why? Simply because I prefer the taste. As I have mentioned many times I feel 14g-15g for a 60ml drink is not optimal for the espresso blends I get here. The drink is harsh, too acidic, too bitter and too thin. Too many undesirable elements were extracted out at the later portions of the extraction. A 15g dosed ristretto is better than a 15g double espresso but my personal favourite is a 18g dose for a ristretto not because I love seeing the flow but because it tasted the best in the cup to my taste buds. 22g ristretto is unbalanced for me and is simply awful for a double espresso. I use 22g to make americanos when I want a longer drink. (Yes I have the 15, 18 and 22 gram vst filter baskets)

If you find that brewing using the "standard" Italian parameters of 7g, 25ml, 9bar, at 88 degrees works best for you then thats great but I would caution against falling for the romantic notion that the Italians know best about espresso since they originated it and thus you must adhere to the 14g rule. Their number may work with the blends they like to use but not for what your local roaster sells. My take is that traditional Italian blends use a small percentage of robusta and a higher percentage of brazilians roasted darker than what we usually get in the local market.

You somewhat hinted it is more economical to reduce a 20g dose and grind finer instead of using a 20g dose and grind coarser. My take on this is use what ever dose or grind you need to get the best out of the bean. You may need to even consider forgetting using the espresso method for brewing for a particular bean/blend/roasting batch. Forget about trying to save a few grams of coffee per drink just because you think its economical. Its like putting less salt in a dish just because you want to save your salt supply.

 

[Lazy_Tiger]

wah just a few steps away from Highlander.

Finishing a pack of Ethiopian Yirgacheffe from Lam Yeo. $10.50. Single origin I know but for espresso it's pretty good. Pleasant non-bitter mouthfeel with mild acidity at the end. I'm beginning to appreciate acidity in my coffees. On my days off work, I aeropressed them to enjoy longer sips.

There's 2 versions at Lam Yeo. The one with 'red cherry' costs abt $15. And it's next on my list.

Nylon used to have a single origin espresso , a ethiopian sidama called bokasso i think. I think it would be great to explore single origins for espresso (though I'm sure many esp central american stuff won't make a nice espresso)

Generally I prefer low acidity coffees. I don't quite favour the bright stuff. Unfortunately I feel generally central american coffees have the best bouquet but are also acidic hahaha.

 

[chikyblink]

I know you wanna steer away from technical discussions but I don't think that's gonna happen lol
lazy to quote your wot so I'll just ask

@tiger
when you switch between your 3 VSTs, do you have markings on your grinder that you previously had dial in to or do you know your grinder too well and just dial in by feel?

 

[chikyblink]

@intelflash

just curious, do you take your espresso with sugar? Because its a known fact that Italians drink their espressos with sugar. And I've always wondered why. Could it be the blends they're using and adding sugar somehow brings out more flavours?

And if you trace back to espresso history, you'll find that Italians drink espresso out of necessity. Something like an energy drink to perk them up before they go to work.

 

[Akai Ryu]

Try espresso on the rock

 

[derazor]

TBH, first thing you must first observe from the slayer video is, how much powder is the person using for a single espresso.

To have that much powder, it's not surprising to have a thick crema.
Actually i find that cheating and misleading. haha

Ask that fellow to show a video doing 7 to 8 grammes of coffee and you will see it running like a waterfall.

I saw that he dose like over 9000

 

[derazor]

@intelflash

just curious, do you take your espresso with sugar? Because its a known fact that Italians drink their espressos with sugar. And I've always wondered why. Could it be the blends they're using and adding sugar somehow brings out more flavours?

And if you trace back to espresso history, you'll find that Italians drink espresso out of necessity. Something like an energy drink to perk them up before they go to work.

I'm still experimenting.

Since I got 2 shots in separate glasses. One I will put sugar and the other not.
Somehow the one with the sugar seems better as I can taste the sugar towards the end I didn't down all of the sugar

 

[derazor]

Can support?
Freshly Roasted Coffee | Product Categories | Blendnew Coffee

 

[Lazy_Tiger]

I know you wanna steer away from technical discussions but I don't think that's gonna happen lol
lazy to quote your wot so I'll just ask

@tiger
when you switch between your 3 VSTs, do you have markings on your grinder that you previously had dial in to or do you know your grinder too well and just dial in by feel?

If I recall correctly The vst was designed to get same yield and total dissolved solids in the same grind setting for all the different sized filter baskets. I find with the 15 and 18g basket no need to change the setting. But for 22g I need to grind coarser. Generally for the 22g basket I grind half a marking coarser. But ultimately it all depends on what blend I use and I change very frequently so its more by looking at the flow and tasting rather setting predesignated markers on the grinder collar.

You are using a vst too right? They have a FAQ here that gives a guideline how to tune your grinder and pump pressure to get the acceptable yield

http://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0092/7622/files/VST_Filter_FAQ.pdf?138

 

[n0d3]

BTW after a trip to Italy, where i see those baristas getting a thick flavourful shot so easily with just 7-8 grammes coffee.
I find that's really skillful and not easy.

From what I understand, Italy's palate for coffee is very different from the rest of the world. Taste wise it tends to be very dark and more on the overextracted end of things I find, not what you would consider a "good" espresso. But they are very efficient in their workflow. They tend to chuck in a lot of robustas as well for the thick crema, which might explain why it looks that way. La Marzocco is trying to change the way coffee is like in Italy and they're taking the opportunity in WBC 2014 to do so since it's held in Italy this year.

 

[IntelFlash]

Chill bro... read my posts carefully...... you are creating a strawman out of the whole discussion.

My initial proposition was never that the slayer is a super duper better machine compared to e61 types. The aim of that post with the video is to share beautiful tiger striping and to show active preinfusion at work on a slayer machine. However now that you seem to be diverting the topic, I could confidently say that the slayer is "better" for intrashot thermal stability and quite possibly intershot consistency especially for busier cafes compared to a E61 because of the saturated group head (Plus a host of other technicalities which I would not want to go into)

Yes...20 grams of grounds could get you 2 drinks....but they are espressos.... not the ristretto you saw in the video. If the slayer marketing team wanted to show that the slayer is capable of making espressos I'm sure they can. But obviously they do not want to do that because making a ristretto would more easily showcase a more pronounced tiger striping and mottling which for a greater visual effect for a promotional video....

WRT your qn on whether its the 20grms of espresso or the slayer machine doing the job of a good extraction, I would say that qn is irrelevant...."Good extraction" (Wat I think you mean is even extraction across the puck, your term good extraction is too general) can be achieved with most decent machines and dosage of 7-22grms. You need even distribution and correct particle range. I would even dare to venture and say that a good quality filter basket and some kind of preinfusion (vs immediate exposure to 9bar) is beneficial.
So.....is it the 20grms or the slayer machine thats makes the extraction in the video looks so even? Irrelevant.

The more important qn is...how does it taste which you somewhat alluded in your subsequent qns. Honestly I don't know cos I have never tested a slayer. What interested me in the slayer and some synessos is the controllable preinfusion you see. It is an interesting variable to play with to try and coax the most desirable elements from the puck into the cup and I think will be a essential tool to a skilled barista in the future. Giving the barista the added capability to vary the pressure is like giving an artist or engineer a tool to create something better greater which he possibly could not previously because of the technical limitations in his instruments. You can also control pressure with a lever machine but I personally do not like it because it is not precise and will add too many uncontrolled variables when trying to experiment with new blends and trying to get the best elements out of the bean.

20grams of coffee will flow...you just need to adjust your grind and use the correct sized filter baskets for this. I recommend VST because they have done their homework to calibrate their baskets to match a grind size that will produce a drink that will have an acceptable extraction yield and total dissolved solids to make a good espresso. VST is the same company sells refractometers and software to measure extraction yield and total dissolved solids in coffee.

Those who have followed this thread will know that I generally favour a 18g dose into a 25-30ml ristretto at between 25-30s. Why? Simply because I prefer the taste. As I have mentioned many times I feel 14g-15g for a 60ml drink is not optimal for the espresso blends I get here. The drink is harsh, too acidic, too bitter and too thin. Too many undesirable elements were extracted out at the later portions of the extraction. A 15g dosed ristretto is better than a 15g double espresso but my personal favourite is a 18g dose for a ristretto not because I love seeing the flow but because it tasted the best in the cup to my taste buds. 22g ristretto is unbalanced for me and is simply awful for a double espresso. I use 22g to make americanos when I want a longer drink. (Yes I have the 15, 18 and 22 gram vst filter baskets)

If you find that brewing using the "standard" Italian parameters of 7g, 25ml, 9bar, at 88 degrees works best for you then thats great but I would caution against falling for the romantic notion that the Italians know best about espresso since they originated it and thus you must adhere to the 14g rule. Their number may work with the blends they like to use but not for what your local roaster sells. My take is that traditional Italian blends use a small percentage of robusta and a higher percentage of brazilians roasted darker than what we usually get in the local market.

You somewhat hinted it is more economical to reduce a 20g dose and grind finer instead of using a 20g dose and grind coarser. My take on this is use what ever dose or grind you need to get the best out of the bean. You may need to even consider forgetting using the espresso method for brewing for a particular bean/blend/roasting batch. Forget about trying to save a few grams of coffee per drink just because you think its economical. Its like putting less salt in a dish just because you want to save your salt supply.

I think you missed my point, but then it's ok. haha

BTW why 7 grammes can't make ristretto?