(GPGT)Espresso machine hoot

[rosli8079]

BTW, i'm using Alex Duetto, a ** db.

Alex Duetto is one of the Double boilers which has the higheest rating from bellabarista, ordered when i was in UK.
After all the bombastic theories and facts, hard selling i had from vendors. Actually later i found out it's about the same as any other DBs, the only thing higher is the price tag..
Truth is 1-3 degree difference, you won't taste a whole world of differences.
Talk about testing , i test with my family and friends, a nice group of over 30 adults.

I start pulling in less than 30 mins. I think if it's HX should be in less than 15 mins since it only has one boiler.
Like everyone is doing, warm the machine with the first flush is i think enough.
It's ******* hot, try using the water wand and flush.
See how hot the wand stays heated even if it's steel with nothing continuously retaining the heat. It's certainly too hot to touch so should be above 70+ degrees. I'm not nerd enough to measure though.
Anyway flush longer if you are not convinced or carry on waiting if you like.
It's brass/copper inside, so it conducts heat quick.
It won't be a case of "suddenly bring down the temperature of the brew and make your coffee sucks".
My tongue and my test speciments i've to serve everyday don't think so, they look very happy.

There's temperature controls for DB, but to be honest i rarely use it.
Making your shots too hot, makes your coffee too bitter. Conversely, too sour. So wtf? Just keep it in the centre then.
So you will probably be aiming to hit around an optimum range of temperature at around 89 degrees, which are what HX are designed to hit around.

To keep people from getting confused behind the screen.
What is real?
E61 waiting time is longer.
DB waiting time is even longer.
PID useful? Depends, but certainly not worth the extra wait time for me.
Pre-infusion useful? If you grind properly, why care about that? Not much tonguetical advantage, again from my tongue and test speciments. In fact a barista in France once told me over extending the brew time is bad which is also right.
DB are more exp for sure.

Get a HX which is cheaper is more practical.
Grouphead wise, it depends on you.
I guess those new age electrically heated ones are surely better if you ask me.

 

[IntelFlash]

Expobar is pretty popular here in Aussie, a lot of baristas have it as a personal machine as it's affordable.

Infact, one of Singapore's World Barista Championship Sensory Judge is using.
i am a barista in sg: My Coffee Toys

The Expobar Leva does look aesthetically better.
If you are on the budget, the pulser is also fine.

Thermal stability wise, it should be comparable since Heat exchangers must flush anyway, which is not a lot of work.

I'll personally prefer the Leva for the look, lever control and gauges.
But again, if you are new and is looking to spend lesser for cafe quality, either should match the standard.

The barista judge was using the HX version and went on to DB.
But i think it's because he's a sensory judge so need more refine accuracy.

What interesting to know, is he sticks to Expobar.
From EB61 to DB Brewtus.

 

[patryn33]

The machine is going to have adjustable pressure, temperature, volume control plus built-in burr grinder and adjustment mechanism, self cleaner and even nfc.

This is really a lot of features for $299. As someone mentioned in the comments section, Scanomat has a similar concept for $19,000.

I urge interested guys to read through the comments section before putting in their hard-earned money.

its just $400, hard earn money is a bit strong. mooncakes today is close to $100. $400 vs $2-3K.

Scanomat has alot of product they are fully automated too.
this is like usd$11K. for this price this can do over 300 cups a day easy. the compact does 323 cups and its reads 2 stars, that is 4 star more like 600 cups a day easy! Artist is home use, say avg 6 cups a day?
TopBrewer, app-controlled coffee beverage tap for $11,000 - Blue Sky Innovation

 

[n0d3]

I've never experience an underextracted shot due to a shorter warm up coz of the Eric's thermometer. I feel for E61 HXs, this thermometer is a must. you'll always know the temperature of the water passing through the thermosyphon.


Sent from GAGT Android App

I second the temp probe mod.

On my Rocket Evo, I usually wait a minimum of 30min + I leave the portafilter handle in the group head as well.

 

[qwe7410]

You leave the portafilter at d head there to heat up together, won't the heat be transferred to the coffee when you grind and earlier deterioriate the coffee quality?

I was at the FHA i remember one of the equipment companies actually told it's actually said it's not advisable to do that.

Just like how people used to knock their portafilter with the tamper.

 

[Lazy_Tiger]

You leave the portafilter at d head there to heat up together, won't the heat be transferred to the coffee when you grind and earlier deterioriate the coffee quality?

I was at the FHA i remember one of the equipment companies actually told it's actually said it's not advisable to do that.

Just like how people used to knock their portafilter with the tamper.

Quite standard practice to brew with a warm portafilter . I think the time u dose and tamp and pull is short enough and should not cause the flavour to spoil. Don't forget coffee is roasted at higher temps for far longer. I wonder which vendor advised u that!

 

[qwe7410]

It's a big coffee equipment company opp ka fei xiang with green theme near the hotel area. The kiosk was damn big with mostly europeans inside but i never see that name before. Their people were talking about roasting too, surely not amateurs. Not those local "specialty" cafes.

If that heat can ignore, then can also ignore about small burr size creating heat which was mentioned to be very "important".

 

[n0d3]

You leave the portafilter at d head there to heat up together, won't the heat be transferred to the coffee when you grind and earlier deterioriate the coffee quality?

I was at the FHA i remember one of the equipment companies actually told it's actually said it's not advisable to do that.

Just like how people used to knock their portafilter with the tamper.

Quite standard practice to brew with a warm portafilter . I think the time u dose and tamp and pull is short enough and should not cause the flavour to spoil. Don't forget coffee is roasted at higher temps for far longer. I wonder which vendor advised u that!

As Lazy_Tiger mentioned, yeah it's quite standard practice. Especially if your portafilter is not naked, it's a substantial piece of equipment that will lose a lot of heat via transfer if it's cold/at room temperature when you start brewing. I understand what you mean by heat affecting the coffee grinds but like LT mentioned, it isn't really going to ruin the grinds considering you dose/tamp/pull a shot relatively quickly. I would imagine that losing heat while brewing is the greater evil in this case.

 

[n0d3]

It's a big coffee equipment company opp ka fei xiang with green theme near the hotel area. The kiosk was damn big with mostly europeans inside but i never see that name before. Their people were talking about roasting too, surely not amateurs. Not those local "specialty" cafes.

If that heat can ignore, then can also ignore about small burr size creating heat which was mentioned to be very "important".

The temperature at the portafilter vs. the temperature vs. friction in grinders is wayyyy different. I think it's more the fact that you're trying to preserve the temperature of the shot process (like how cups are prewarmed). If the temp goes down WHILE you're brewing because of the cooler portafilter you might end up with something tasting a bit underextracted.

*plus if you lock it in cold the grouphead itself might actually lose temperature during those few min.

 

[IntelFlash]

The standard practise is to warm the cups, that's even more important.
Also the cup should be as close as possible, so you may need a stool for your cup to bring close if it's not tall enough.
But not many do all that, not even in barista competitions.

Bottomless don't really need to warm the portafilter.
With single/double filter, maybe but i don't think it will matter a lot.
If we go by all these theories the better way is to flush without the filter basket so only the portafilter not the basket gets heated.
Then you grind the coffee into the basket to minimize the loss of fragance from heat.
But who's going to do that.
SG's cafes so far, don't really see a lot of standards.

Use your tongue to decide, if it doesn't matter to you, then don't bother and make your life difficult.
I used to try out the "perfect" way, but i find it don't matter as much as i thought. No matter what short cuts i later did, i haven't underextracted though.
Actually i'm more worried of over extraction with too packed grinds.
If you are a latte/cappuccino drinker, then it even matters less, most flavours are covered by milk.

If you really like the portafilter heated, fit it in, let it run with water with your first flush.
It heats up your grouphead faster, your portafilter as well as your cups all at once. Also gush out those water stuck from the last flush. Hits a nest of birds with one stone.

Cups are the hardest to warm up, more effective way imo is still flush it and i do warm my cups. So anyone measure their cup's temperature here or warm their sugar and spoon?
Then if we want to go more indepth, we can talk about the material of the cup, width height thicknesss of the cup, etc. It's never ending.

My friend inherited a shophouse and he decided to open a cafe, so i followed him visited IT, FR and USA in Sept.
Honestly, most "specialty" cafes also don't bother to do much but still taste decently good.

 

[n0d3]

I think it's worth measuring if the drop is significant (I agree with you about not being so fussed with the minor details, as long as it tastes good). A user has reported measuring a huge drop in his grouphead temp if you don't preheat it before hand. It's basically a big heat sink since it's quite a substantial piece of metal.

"It will take a surprisingly long time for your portafilter and machine to heat back up if you lock in a cold portafilter. This can be seen by using one of Eric's group mounted thermocouples. Within seconds of putting a room temperature portafilter in the group, the temp will plummet. I have seen 5-8 degrees drop in the group and it can take 15 minutes to recover to a stable temperature. I always leave the portafilter in the group. Just don't crank it in super tight."

 

[testerjp]

Isn't choosing your beans, caliberating your grinder correctly more important.

Makes up 90% of the importance.
If you are making a milk drink, the coffee part is even more insignificant.
Want to taste the coffee also cannot taste.
You can perfect the other 10% if you have a lot of time though.

Just like cooking a steak.
Heat your pan till u see ur oil smoking, throw the meat in and start flipping.
You can use a thermometre, but that don't mean one without makes something worse.

When you keep using your machine, you will figure out.
So far, i haven't had any coffee too sour and i start brewing as soon it's ready in 8 mins. Maybe because mine is not the E61 grouphead

 

[n0d3]

Isn't choosing your beans, caliberating your grinder correctly more important.

Makes up 90% of the importance.
If you are making a milk drink, the coffee part is even more insignificant.
Want to taste the coffee also cannot taste.
You can perfect the other 10% if you have a lot of time though.

Just like cooking a steak.
Heat your pan till u see ur oil smoking, throw the meat in and start flipping.
You can use a thermometre, but that don't mean one without makes something worse.

When you keep using your machine, you will figure out.
So far, i haven't had any coffee too sour and i start brewing as soon it's ready in 8 mins. Maybe because mine is not the E61 grouphead

I think you're misunderstanding the situation, we're not discussing whether one factor is more important than the other. It doesn't matter if the temperature is stable if you don't have the proper grind size, and the proper grind size wouldn't matter if you don't dose correctly etc.

They are all linked and all play a part in the final product. To say one thing is more important than another is simplifying things far too much.

I agree with you that making a milk based beverage can cover/obscure any flaws (or good qualities) of an espresso shot but that's not to say that you cannot taste the it/it is not significant. It's how much value you place on that difference between something that tastes bad, so-so, okay, good and something that blows your mind. It wouldn't matter that much if the quality of the beverage is somewhere in the middle, but at opposite ends, you'll be able to tell a difference.

I think with food/beverages that require preparation, objective measurements are useful if not indicative of at least a certain standard. A thermometer/internal temp of steak is useful/an objective measurement of how a steak will turn out (rare, medium rare, medium, rare). It pretty much tells you how the steak is cooked. So I daresay it's useful. True that you can cook a beautiful piece of steak without a thermometer but it requires experience. Same with coffee, by experience you know how a good shot should look when it extracts and the way it looks in the cup and how long it takes. But this takes experience. The objective measurement then is perhaps calculating TDS.

But yes, I agree with you guys that at the end of the day, do what you're most comfortable with and what gives you the best results. Anything else, pursue at your own discretion. (Y)

 

[patryn33]

My hoot for today. In a hurry I screwed up! Picked up a bag roasted on 24 oct.

 

[Lazy_Tiger]

The standard practise is to warm the cups, that's even more important.
Cups are the hardest to warm up, more effective way imo is still flush it and i do warm my cups.

This is where I differ from standard cafe practise as I don't warm my espresso cup. I drink immediately after brewing and find the temperature is perfect for consumption. Using d ancap standard size. with double walled insulated glasses I have to wait a bit. I remember Matt perger using ice cold cups to serve his espresso during the wbc to get the espresso immediately cooled to body temp but I guess that's too extreme.

 

[qwe7410]

Actually i anyhow whack also better than my nespresso or most of the cafes outside i'm happy already. lucky my bezzera grouphead no need wait so long

 

[tomb]

hario skerton going for US$28.86 on amazon right now.

 

[chikyblink]

I don't warm my espresso cup too. it's always at room temperature when I pulled the shot. after that I can immediately drink it in 2 or 3 sips.
if I had warm my espresso cup, its too hot to drink immediately, I had to slowly blow onto it and sip it slowly, like drinking kopi at coffeeshops.

I do however warm my cappuccino cup though.

Sent from GAGT Android App

 

[qwe7410]

Things start to sound contradicting.

I actually tried this morning, one whack straight as soon as the machine is ready and one heat up both holder and cup.

No difference to me so don't matter.
Don't think my family care that tiny difference[if any] too.

 

[qwe7410]

My hoot for today. In a hurry I screwed up! Picked up a bag roasted on 24 oct.

how much it cost for a pack like that in USA?