(GPGT)Espresso machine hoot

[patryn33]

Is this better in terms of grind compared to rocky? Hand grinding looks like a lot of trouble, hehe. Looks like takes up a lot of space too.

HG one to rocky? HG One beats Rocky hands down.
Hand grinding on HG One is a bit of trouble. U have to weight out your beans.
U can do that with a weighing spoon cost U maybe US$10.
grinding with a season burr for 18-20gm of coffee is like 20 turns or maybe ~10secs. a little longer, unseason ppl here reports like 30secs to get 24gm of coffee. will that be really more time and effort, I say no IMHO.

Baratza vario spit out like 2gm/sec so to get 18gm of coffee is 9secs job.

space.. ya the HG one takes up like 14x14inchs of space.
vario just 14x18cm

if U get serious an want a competition grade auto... try the mahlkonig k30 vario. thats not small either its 9.5“ x 12.6" but still smaller.
K30 Vario - Single Espresso Grinder (WBC) (USBC)

coffee retention issue on HG-One little, alot less than the auto. Easier or elss time spend on weekly cleaning. if U have small counter space that is a main issue I see here.

 

[rosli8079]

For home, i think if you are spending more than $1k for a grinder is already .

To spend almost US$1.15k (With shipping and whatever measuring tool) for a hand grinder is really

I pass

 

[patryn33]

For home, i think if you are spending more than $1k for a grinder is already .

To spend almost US$1.15k (With shipping and whatever measuring tool) for a hand grinder is really

I pass

the auto grinder Mazzer robur over usd$2K add shipping also not cheap.

V30 vario is cheaper at usd$1.6K, super fast 2sec for 7gm!

whats lacking here with those auto doser is a self cleaning option.

rocky with 50mm burr size gets a est ~500lbs of coffee b4 changing.
Baratza Vario Burr 54mm get ~590lbs
Mahikonig k30 65mm burr ~800kg.
HG One or Robur gets ~1800lbs, if U drink 1lb a week thats ~34.6yrs b4 changing.

 

[Lazy_Tiger]

Browsing the HB forums, seems like the consensus is that Rocky was good choice in the past, but now with other options like Barataza Vario, Rocky is subpar and overpriced.

Pretty much correct. Rocky was a good grinder but the vario is more home user friendly. The rocky is durable though. much metal construction and burr assembly. Vario has some issues with durability actually.

 

[Lazy_Tiger]

Is this better in terms of grind compared to rocky? Hand grinding looks like a lot of trouble, hehe. Looks like takes up a lot of space too.

A small hand grinder is definitely takes more effort than an electronic one but once you get into pharos or HG one class then the benefits of hand grinding outweighs the cons esp for the home user. HG one is very easy and fast to grind, faster than my rocky and Compak k3 actually. Grind retention is near zero. 0.1gramms at most measured on my scale (or could be my scale simply does not have the resolution to measure finer than 0.1 grams).

How big a problem is grind retention on electric grinders? When I was using the k3 i had to grind out about an extra 5g to beans left over the night before. Otherwise the espresso is thin and runny because it lacks crema if i just made it straight without purging the left over. This wastes a lot of bean for every shot that u make.

The workflow from using a HG one is actually easier. Because grind retention is negligible, I weigh my beans accurate to what I need and then i grind. No need to weight the filter basket after grinding and sweep out the excess or top up more.

I know a lot of home baristas here don't bother to weigh their dose but it makes a huge difference to the final product. 1 gram difference is very hard to detect on the filter basket with eye power but it affects the flow rate and taste a lot. A 0.1g grinder weighing scale is essential.

If you have a very precise and consistent extraction method then you can start to tweak individual parameters to make an espresso that is perfect to your tastebuds. Otherwise its just shooting in the dark.

 

[Lazy_Tiger]

All grinders will retain more or less, nothing much to do with the brand.
The reason why hand grinders retain lesser is because you have to dismantle everytime and can easier hand held it to knock to tilt or whatever. It's wireless, it's easier to manipulate and empty the grinder but requires much more time and effort.
An on demand grinder may takes less than 10 secs to on and grind straight to your portafilter .
Hand grinders have to weigh the beans, dismantle the grinder, grind to powder then transfer the powder to your portafilter.

Retention depends on the grinder design. Most e-grinders grind the grounds to the lower portion of the grinding chamber where there are sweeper vanes to sweep the grounds out of the chute. These vanes don't work perfectly so there will always be a lot of grinds stuck inside. Once you stop the motor the sweeper vanes also stop moving with the unswept grinds still inside. E-grinders also rely from the pressure from newer grinds on top to force out the old grounds out because the sweeper vanes do not work perfectly.

For the HG one you don't have to dismantle the grinder la. U can actually grind direct to the portafilter too.

E-grinders also have to weigh the beans. Don't bother using the dosing timer if you want consistency because its worthless unless you keep your hopper full all the time. Different levels of beans in the hopper affects the grind rate. There are few grinders that can grind by weight (Vario W and forte) and even then they cannot grind directly to the portafilter.

If I can spend that effort to eliminate retention on a hand grinder. I believe I can also eliminate quite a bit with an on demand grinder.

Sure you can. With a vacuum cleaner. And after disassembling your burr carrier. This will take about 60 hard turns with a 58mm burr group. The method of tapping the grounds out with the top cover of the hopper is sadly not perfect. Hand grinders don't have the lower grind chamber so you don't have this problem.

No matter whether it's Rocky or a Mazzer.
You can't escape the fact there's powder trapped between the burrs. So it maybe necessary to push out some powder to remove those that are not fresh, before your first cup.

Yes agreed. If you make a lot at home back to back then I think a e-grinder would be more useful. Otherwise a hand grinder is good enough.

 

[Lazy_Tiger]

For home, i think if you are spending more than $1k for a grinder is already .

To spend almost US$1.15k (With shipping and whatever measuring tool) for a hand grinder is really

I pass

The HG one is about 1.5k SGD I think. Don't forget e-grinders are worthless once the motor breaks down. The HG one has no parts to break down and burr sets are cheap. Spare parts are available should you ever break the 1/2 inch thick steel frame.

U don't use a "measuring tool" when making espresso. U use a 0.1g scale or rely on luck or suck thumb and pretend to like espresso that taste good one day, so so another and awful another. Unless you make hundreds everyday its difficult to just go by observation to guess your dose.

Or just drink lattes instead.

 

[patryn33]

The HG one is about 1.5k SGD I think. Don't forget e-grinders are worthless once the motor breaks down. The HG one has no parts to break down and burr sets are cheap. Spare parts are available should you ever break the 1/2 inch thick steel frame.

U don't use a "measuring tool" when making espresso. U use a 0.1g scale or rely on luck or suck thumb and pretend to like espresso that taste good one day, so so another and awful another. Unless you make hundreds everyday its difficult to just go by observation to guess your dose.

Or just drink lattes instead.

can fix what, just have longer down time not really worthless.
motor don't break that easily.. the circuit boards on it cost just as much as he burrs on the robur.

many ppl in SG in fact drink lattes and that doesnt make a diff. most ppl dont pretend it taste good/bad, they just cant tell the diff. can tell starbucks and what not still so long line and have U seen what they ordering? dont tell me mostly straight up espresso.

many Italians drink espresso with alot of sugar too. few ppl actually drink it neat.

 

[Lazy_Tiger]

can fix what, just have longer down time not really worthless.
motor don't break that easily.. the circuit boards on it cost just as much as he burrs on the robur.

many ppl in SG in fact drink lattes and that doesnt make a diff. most ppl dont pretend it taste good/bad, they just cant tell the diff. can tell starbucks and what not still so long line and have U seen what they ordering? dont tell me mostly straight up espresso.

many Italians drink espresso with alot of sugar too. few ppl actually drink it neat.

True true. A e grinder would be more convenient and fast for most people. Like u said if someone can invent a zero retention e grinder it would snapped up. The vario was designed to retain as little as possible but hard to convince unless the sweeper design is radically different

 

[qwe7410]

I was having coffee at a cafe at Penang and they were using the Mazzer, i think the burr should be the same as HG one.

I overheard the boss telling his staffs that the burrs was damaged by a stone and he's waiting for replacement burrs.
It looks like a new cafe.

Bigger and conic burr will work longer is suppose to be true but unlikely it will live it's life smoothly without an accident with a foreign object. Particularly if one likes to purchase beans from those local "gourmet roasters".

Anyway i activate and push some coffee out before my first cup of the day will do. If it's just within the next 6 hours, it's not runny nor that bad.

 

[rosli8079]

Most grinders are damn heavy, the motor must be super heavy duty and doubt it will spoilt that easily.

Anyway to spend almost $1000 more for a hand grinder.
Talk about wastage of 3-5 gms a day?
Maybe half the users are not even bothered.

How long more than can save to justify that $1000?
And the time and hassle we talking about.

Talk about perfection is one thing.
Usability is as important.

 

[derazor]

I think that the other one called the professional barista's handbook (Can easily get this from *ahem* sources. pls buy if its good). The one chickblink is referring to is "Espresso Extraction: Measurement and Mastery" and only avaialbe from amazon ebooks. I have both but if you already have the basics of espresso and would like to focus more on espresso then then "Espresso Extraction" is a must read.

The other book I recommend is Coffee Obsession by Annette Moldvaer of Square Mile. Good for understanding coffee origins and useful if you would like to try roasting.

3 Coffee Books Every Barista Needs to Read | The Coffee Compass

 

[derazor]

I used a 8oz pitcher with the silvia. Try putting enough milk about slightly less than half of the height of the of the pitcher (about 4 oz). Turn on the steam to full blast with fhe wand deep inside and immediately lower the pitcher until u get About 2secs of the sucking sound. Then raise the pitcher and get a nice smooth rolling. Don't plunge the wand too deep otherwise too much power of the steam is lost hitting the bottom of the pitcher. The aim is to get a smooth rolling movement without too much turbulence.

I think you stop the Steaming at just the right time. Nice thing about the Silvia is actually the low steaming power. Perfect for 1 cup and slow enough to for beginners so that you don't have to rush the steps.

I change my routine abit to ensure more repeat ability ( if it's possible )

Position of the wand is now slight angled ( 2 to 3 degrees ) and slight offset from the center ( offset distance = approx 1/5 radius )

I now dunk slightly lower no sound first then I proceed to lower the pitcher till there is tearing sound. I leave it there for like 2s then I dunk it till there is no sound. Now, I place the pitcher on the bed of the Silvia so that it's more repeatable

The milk is now rolling ( up down ) rather than spinning ( like tsunami in water ). Previous technique I tilt the pitcher and also place the wand away from pitcher wall and I can see the tsunami effect.

The process stops when I can't hold pitcher anymore.

It seems like the milk is more dilute now but I can still do more latte art. Should I dunk it longer so that it's more concentrated? Maybe 3 to 4s and all processes remain the same?

 

[derazor]

Do you guys service/clean your grinder? Is it required?

 

[Lazy_Tiger]

Bigger and conic burr will work longer is suppose to be true but unlikely it will live it's life smoothly without an accident with a foreign object. Particularly if one likes to purchase beans from those local "gourmet roasters".

Bro... the specialty cafes here get their beans from mostly the same sources as the mass market ones...the sorting that is done separate high quality one and to remove stones etc from the greens is done at the coffee mill usually near the origin itself with optical sensors. So whether your specialty roaster or mass market ones has stones is more of a matter of luck.

I know alot of bros here like to diss the new speciality roasters here without even knowing their supply chain. If anything, most Speciality roasters tend get their beans from estates or collection centres that are more renowned for their quality and good production practices. One of the roasters here even gets a small supply from ninetyplus!

 

[Lazy_Tiger]

It seems like the milk is more dilute now but I can still do more latte art. Should I dunk it longer so that it's more concentrated? Maybe 3 to 4s and all processes remain the same?

Do you mean that the milk as not as creamy because there is not enough fine air bubbles in the mix? I think you could try to introduce more air and then try to get a good rolling action when u raise the pitcher to integrate the air you have just introduced into the mixture. The end result should look like wet paint with very little "milk foam cap" to top to do a good latte art. After steaming you could try to swirl your pitcher on the counter top too to reintegrate any foam that has risen to the top but this has its limitations.

 

[Lazy_Tiger]

Do you guys service/clean your grinder? Is it required?

Once a month i ran caffeto grinder clean when I was using the e-grinders. To be honest i'm not sure how much of an improvement it makes. I did disassemble the burr group to inspect the burrs every 3-4 months or so and clean out the gunk inside but its very leh cheh and messy. Have to be careful when screwing back the burr carrier as the threads are very fine and can misalign and cut the threads wrongly.

 

[Lazy_Tiger]

Talk about wastage of 3-5 gms a day?
Maybe half the users are not even bothered.

5 grams to purge when you make a 15gram shot is like 25% of your of the coffee in your 250g bag spent purging.

Its not just about justifying the personal cost. It's a clear waste of food.

Its like using 4 cups of rice to cook 3 cups of rice because your rice cooker just has poor design.

 

[qwe7410]

i dun purge my grinder after every cup.
And i make at least 5 cups a day as it's easy to use by everyone.

Infact i don't purge if it's just one day and nobody notice any difference.
So it's quite a strawman argument.

Anyway you can be happy with what you think is fine, but don't have to judge everyone else as wrong.

 

[chikyblink]

all this discussion is good and informative but let's not get too carried away.
clearly there are 2 camps here:

one that favors practicality and views coffee as nothing more than a beverage that provides their daily caffeine fix.
another one strives for perfection in the cup.

so I would say to each his own.


ps: tiger, are you considering purchasing a refractometer, or do you already have one?

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