(GPGT)Espresso machine hoot

[sandwich]

wow interesting, but take care the popcorn machine doesnt catch fire wor, not sure if it's built to reach higher temps. gd luck!

 

[chikyblink]

power leh bro.....go those youtube a lot they got teach...

Yes, I think I've watched every single popcorn roaster vid out there liao

 

[chikyblink]

wow interesting, but take care the popcorn machine doesnt catch fire wor, not sure if it's built to reach higher temps. gd luck!

Don't worry, I know roasting coffee is always a fire hazard regardless of the method and equipment used. Never walk away in the middle of a roast!

 

[chikyblink]

Home Roasting on a popcorn popper(update1)

"removing" the thermostat:

So I opened up the popper(a b*tch to do so as one of the screw heads has corroded) and found the thermostat wrapped around the metal chamber. I'm a noob when it comes to wiring and stuff so instead of removing it, I repositioned the thermostat underneath the fan casing at the bottom, far away from the heat. I basically just follow the instructions in this vid https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8fv3EEpDLN4


Extending the chamber:

I found a can that has similar diameter to the chamber. But I have no idea how to attach it to the plastic cover on top of the chamber. Not until I watched this vid https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jV7tZmNEjQQ. He uses some thin bendable metal rods to attach his can. I couldn't find any. The best alternative I can think of is mini bungee cords I found at Homefix.

The long extended chamber means I can increase my load.

I roasted 3 batches this afternoon. 80gm, 90gm and 100gm. The very first batch I roasted last week tasted burnt and nasty. This time I ended my roasted much earlier, around the 7min mark. My 1c(first crack) happened around 3min as usual. I'm not sure I heard 2c as the popper is quite loud but I stopped the roast around 7mins, with the 100gm batch stopping at 6.30min.
I kinda suspect my roasts are happening too fast causing 1c and 2c to merge. So far I've plugged my popper directly into a wall outlet. I've read using an extension cord dramatically slows down the roast. I'm so gonna try that next.
Hopefully today's roasts are at least drinkable.

 

[Lazy_Tiger]

I kinda suspect my roasts are happening too fast causing 1c and 2c to merge. (

I understand this can happen if the is not enough beans in the roaster.

geisha speciality coffee seems to carry some good beans too.
http://www.geishaspecialty.com.sg/pdf/geisha_green_beans_price_list.pdf

Speaking of geishas strangers reunion has some stock of the panama la esmeralda geishas.

 

[tyrtok]

"removing" the thermostat:


I roasted 3 batches this afternoon. 80gm, 90gm and 100gm. The very first batch I roasted last week tasted burnt and nasty. This time I ended my roasted much earlier, around the 7min mark. My 1c(first crack) happened around 3min as usual. I'm not sure I heard 2c as the popper is quite loud but I stopped the roast around 7mins, with the 100gm batch stopping at 6.30min.
I kinda suspect my roasts are happening too fast causing 1c and 2c to merge. So far I've plugged my popper directly into a wall outlet. I've read using an extension cord dramatically slows down the roast. I'm so gonna try that next.
Hopefully today's roasts are at least drinkable.

hmm how does an extension cord slow down the roast....
maybe the heating element is too hot to begin with? is there a external power adapter to it? how many Volt is it?

 

[chikyblink]

from sweetmarias

Popper roasts too fast - Each popper can run differently - and some can especially at first run very hot. A simple fix is to use an extension cord between the popper and the wall outlet - since this will reduce the voltage slightly and make the popper run slower.

I've seen this tip mentioned many times in websites and forums.

Sent from GAGT Android App

 

[Sylar22]

Recently i've been experimenting with dosage, weight and stuff. I'm dosing 14g of dry coffee and pulling out a 40g espresso shot for abt 25~28 seconds. Ideally the Brewing ratio should be 50% but i'm doing it at 35%. Something i'm confused about is the gross volume of the coffee , if i'm pulling a 40g espresso shouldn't it also mean it's 40ml because 1g=1ml ? But from what i've been reading, the weight and the volume of the extracted liquid coffee is different. Can someone explain to me how the whole thing works ? Thanks !

 

[chikyblink]

one word. crema. ask yourself what's the weight of foam

Sent from GAGT Android App

 

[relacker]

can't hear the cracks for popper roasting...too noisy.... can try pan roasting but chaff will fly

 

[calbay]

There's actually no science to tasting.

1g espresso is still there around 1ml.
Influenced by the coffee's character, grinding and dosage. Which gives different amount of oil for different amount of tds and crema.
How well it's preserved and how fresh is the coffee do play a part as usual.
Even your machine plays a part.

So as you can see, there's barely any accuracies or consistency. Chasing the perfect figures also don't mean that brings you to your cup of excellence. It's not something one should mind too much.

As for brew ratio, there's no ideal spot as long it's above 25 pct.
I'm at 30 pct.


Having 50 pct brew ratio is a matter of preference but it's like a syrup.
Imagine neat hard liquor.
It won't necessarily mean better, it means extracted slower, more concentrated and thicker.

As it goes slow, it has more time to bring more but it gathers more heat and burn out delicate notes. So despite the concentration, you still lose out other values.
This is some hydro and thermal dynamics many baristas don't understand.

I'm not sure about everyone but we did taste test to see how many cups people will want to drink in a morning within 3 hrs. Most find it hard to take more than 2 cups with 50 pct ratio.
While those on 30 can easily take 3 or more and can identify or appreciate the notes better.
To be fair it's base on espresso drinkers and not conclusive though.

Conclusion, use your tongue as the indicator.
Coffee is not about the more the merrier.

 

[Sylar22]

one word. crema. ask yourself what's the weight of foam

Sent from GAGT Android App

i saw someone pulled a shot that's 29g in weight but 40ml in volume. Does that mean that the crema is 11g?

 

[Lazy_Tiger]

Recently i've been experimenting with dosage, weight and stuff. I'm dosing 14g of dry coffee and pulling out a 40g espresso shot for abt 25~28 seconds. Ideally the Brewing ratio should be 50% but i'm doing it at 35%. Something i'm confused about is the gross volume of the coffee , if i'm pulling a 40g espresso shouldn't it also mean it's 40ml because 1g=1ml ? But from what i've been reading, the weight and the volume of the extracted liquid coffee is different. Can someone explain to me how the whole thing works ? Thanks !

You have taken a good step to getting the consistency, by using weight instead of volume to measure. Volume is worthless unless you are always brewing espresso of the same blend and same age all the time.

When using ratio to brew espresso you are using weight as the measure not volume. There is no hard and fast rule but generally (from Scott Rao) the ratio should be from 1.5-2. 1.5 is for shots in the ristretto range and 2 is more for the lungo range. I routinely brew 1.2-1.4 because I prefer ristretos. Very rarely I will brew a ratio of more than 2 (with some nylon blends )

So if 14g is your dose then you should get an espresso of between 21-28g. 40g is way too much and is likely to be thin and overextracted and very bitter. (There are exceptions)

Personally I feel The italian standard of single shot of 25-30ml and for a double 50-60ml is a joke. 60 ml is HUGE if you actually measure it.

The 2nd issue is brew time. I feel for this one you can be more flexible. Brew time is affected by the machine u use. Some machines with preinfusion should take a longer brew time while those without (silvia) should take a shorter time.

 

[Lazy_Tiger]

i saw someone pulled a shot that's 29g in weight but 40ml in volume. Does that mean that the crema is 11g?

Depends when the fella decided to measure the volume. If you examine your espresso within 1min after brewing you can see the level of crema get lower and the overall volume of the drink gets less.. Thats why volume is a worthless measure unless you brew using the same blend and same age of beans all the time.

 

[hardwaregone]

There's actually no science to tasting.

1g espresso is still there around 1ml.
Influenced by the coffee's character, grinding and dosage. Which gives different amount of oil for different amount of tds and crema.
How well it's preserved and how fresh is the coffee do play a part as usual.
Even your machine plays a part.

So as you can see, there's barely any accuracies or consistency. Chasing the perfect figures also don't mean that brings you to your cup of excellence. It's not something one should mind too much.

As for brew ratio, there's no ideal spot as long it's above 25 pct.
I'm at 30 pct.


Having 50 pct brew ratio is a matter of preference but it's like a syrup.
Imagine neat hard liquor.
It won't necessarily mean better, it means extracted slower, more concentrated and thicker.

As it goes slow, it has more time to bring more but it gathers more heat and burn out delicate notes. So despite the concentration, you still lose out other values.
This is some hydro and thermal dynamics many baristas don't understand.

I'm not sure about everyone but we did taste test to see how many cups people will want to drink in a morning within 3 hrs. Most find it hard to take more than 2 cups with 50 pct ratio.
While those on 30 can easily take 3 or more and can identify or appreciate the notes better.
To be fair it's base on espresso drinkers and not conclusive though.

Conclusion, use your tongue as the indicator.
Coffee is not about the more the merrier.

I think i get what you mean.
When i was in Switzerland early this mth, i went past this store which sell coffee equipment and also coffee. I don't really understand every word but i think they were saying something like too thick will instead mask the lighter flavours.
Indeed the coffee was out of this world, a new level of coffee i never knew. It wins all the cafes i had tried in SG hands down, even better than the ones i tried in Seattle.

Previously i was using 14-15 grams for single.
To be honest, whatever blend i use, it all taste rather similar.

Now i'm using 15 grams for 2 shots.
What a world of difference, taste really a lot smoother.
Can expand and taste those floral aroma notes previously not found.
The coffee is sweeter and it lingers in the mouth much longer.

Previously it was so thick, it feels like stuck in the throat.
And since i smoke, i feel my throat felt like cracking.

It's probably a case of preference but i no longer have to add sugar now so i bet i enjoy it better.

 

[Lazy_Tiger]

There's actually no science to tasting.

1g espresso is still there around 1ml.

Not true......1g of espresso can be 2 mls. try doing your own measuring. 1g is 1ml if you have 0 crema.

So as you can see, there's barely any accuracies or consistency. Chasing the perfect figures also don't mean that brings you to your cup of excellence. It's not something one should mind too much.

Nonsense. measuring matters because thats how you are able to get consistent taste in your espresso. Thats precisely how you tune to fit your espresso extraction to your tastebuds.

As for brew ratio, there's no ideal spot as long it's above 25 pct.
I'm at 30 pct.


Having 50 pct brew ratio is a matter of preference but it's like a syrup.
Imagine neat hard liquor.
It won't necessarily mean better, it means extracted slower, more concentrated and thicker.

How are you calculating brew ratio? 30% is in the lungo range and thats 46grams of espresso for a 14g dose! Very high possibility of over-extraction and bitter more like a cafe crema.

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As it goes slow, it has more time to bring more but it gathers more heat and burn out delicate notes. So despite the concentration, you still lose out other values.
This is some hydro and thermal dynamics many baristas don't understand.

Not true. 88-95 degrees of water hitting the puck is nothing compared to the temperatures when roasting. The water temperature does NOT spoil the oils unless you are extracting with STEAM. Higher temperatures have a higher potential to extract more oils but we don't use too high not because of spoiling the oils but because higher temps will extract out undesirable soluble solids which will make your drink bitter.

Lungos are the ones with high potential to be thin and bitter because too much soluble solids have been extracted out. Ristretos have high potential to be thick and SOUR because not enough soluble solids were extracted out.

Conclusion, use your tongue as the indicator.
Coffee is not about the more the merrier.

Agree. But like I already mentioned the measurements help with consistency and gives a new user or even an experienced user with a new blend the guidelines to work out what taste profile he wants instead of shooting in the dark.

 

[Sylar22]

You have taken a good step to getting the consistency, by using weight instead of volume to measure. Volume is worthless unless you are always brewing espresso of the same blend and same age all the time.

When using ratio to brew espresso you are using weight as the measure not volume. There is no hard and fast rule but generally (from Scott Rao) the ratio should be from 1.5-2. 1.5 is for shots in the ristretto range and 2 is more for the lungo range. I routinely brew 1.2-1.4 because I prefer ristretos. Very rarely I will brew a ratio of more than 2 (with some nylon blends )

So if 14g is your dose then you should get an espresso of between 21-28g. 40g is way too much and is likely to be thin and overextracted and very bitter. (There are exceptions)

Personally I feel The italian standard of single shot of 25-30ml and for a double 50-60ml is a joke. 60 ml is HUGE if you actually measure it.

The 2nd issue is brew time. I feel for this one you can be more flexible. Brew time is affected by the machine u use. Some machines with preinfusion should take a longer brew time while those without (silvia) should take a shorter time.

My filter basket can only fill 14g for a double shot. But I'm getting another basket that can fill more coffee dose, maybe around 17g. I'm currently using toby's estate woolloomooloo blend, it taste okay when i pull a 40g espresso.Not sure how it will taste like if i only pull a 21~28g espresso from it. I'm pulling 40g for 25 seconds now, if i were to pull let's say ~25g i think it would take less than 20 seconds which is wrong i think ?

Depends when the fella decided to measure the volume. If you examine your espresso within 1min after brewing you can see the level of crema get lower and the overall volume of the drink gets less.. Thats why volume is a worthless measure unless you brew using the same blend and same age of beans all the time.

The fella puts 29g(40ml) in his caption, maybe he looks at the measuring glass at 40ml then waits for a while for the crema to decrease then he weighs the espresso? That's why the difference between the volume and weight differs by so much ?

 

[chikyblink]

All this science vs tongue talk, btw have you guys seen this interesting video by Ben Kaminsky where he probably piss off a lot of top baristas and roasters.

He talks about most cafes are underextracting their shots. His simple solution is to just let the shot run longer instead of cutting it off early.
At about the 1:05 mark, he talks about separate roasting each coffee to their specific peak b4 blending them, as oppose to what many roasters are doing, which is blending the greens first then roasting. The woman questioning him shortly is Trish Rothgeb of Wrecking Ball.

He firmly believes good coffee can be achieved by using the correct tools and accurate measurements. And that good quality coffee isn't subjective and shouldn't be based on individual taste.

 

[calbay]

Sorry i conveniently inversed the calculation base on the previou poster's calculation for his understanding.

Anyway i've read Barista's handbook by Scott Rao too which is quite plain and easy to read. And i've read a few other books/studies backed by research.

As for coffee oil, there is a difference.
Oil mitigration starts starts during roasting and goes on during degassing outward through the cell pores. The condition of the bean is different.
Partly the reason, peaberries, maragogype and other large berry cherries are much appreciated
As for density, coffee solids play little influence, even adding with sugar raise density to around 1.08g/ml. TSD maybe 20mg-60mg per ml.
Anyway what previously mentioned, weight is a better count, not volume.
Crema should be persistent at just 10%, not necessary thicker the better.

As for percolation time, time is not an independent variable but rather the result of the other parameters.
Like i mentioned previously, grind, pressure, temp, tamp all play a part.

At higher temperature, it does bring along more flavours, but as well its bitter substance, which does affects the overal sensory appreciation as the bitterness will overwhelm certain delicate notes.
Thus there's no clear ruling going high is right. It's not about the solids, it's also about the lipids, volatile aroma, carbo, etc.
And espresso are highly not recommended to be extracted abv 92 degrees, unless a few conditions are met.

As for your definition of over extraction due to more extraction volume, i don't really agree because it's not considered that way. It won't burn the coffee as a real overextracted coffee do. By a more commonly known espresso, over extracted espresso may have white foam with big bubbles, if water temp was too high, a white spot can be found in the middle of the cup.

As for extraction standards, it depends on where you come from.

Preferably getting 25ml in 25-30 seconds in Southen Europe which includes Italy, Spain, Greece, etc.
In fact it was 6.5g +- 1.5g, 90 +-5 degree c, 30+- 5 secs.
There's no certain criterion but consunsus on a percolation time is in the optimal range of 25-35ml. Volume again depends on the preference.

Northern Europe like Germany Holland, Scandinivia and USA are the ones who may ask for up to 70-120ml.
Of course they will go for coarser grind so water pass more easily by different names, or lungo as you call it a taller espresso.
No one is a joke or getting ridiculous, a joke is probably when you are unable to appreciate by its form.


However short below 10 secs extraction, though most crema out first, is considered under extracted, tasting dull and diluted.

A lower dose 6.5g for 30ml, though almost 3 times more, doesn't mean that it will be bringing much less.
If one is to use 6.5g to achieve the same 30mk, the only way possible is he is grinding way finer than the guy using 20g to get his shot.
When it's finer, the exposed surface area increase exponetially allowing more extraction surface area and hydralic tractions.

Water don't go through the coffee fines while extracting, it passes by and bring along the oil, solids, and chemical.
And this is why a lower dose should tamp even lighter, and why people see Italians barely tamping at all.
As the powder are so fine, any hard tamp will cause channeling issues. They also use lower temp and higher pressure for same relating reasons. And like what Scott Rao had mentioned, the pressure during extraction dwarfs the pressure of tamping. To be honest, i'm not a big fan of Scott Rao, i only like it because it's easy to read for beginners. We used to let our part timers read it. There are better materials out there. I forgot which part i read, but i think he is not right in everythning.

Of course baristas even myself prefer to go for higher dose. Because the particles being bigger is easier to channel and easier to extract, but not really necessary nor i personally recommend. A single ligher dose is harder to extract than a heavy one, particularly with a single 7g basket.

End of the day, the most important chapter i learned is not the science. Is the psychology of perception.

 

[Lazy_Tiger]

My filter basket can only fill 14g for a double shot. But I'm getting another basket that can fill more coffee dose, maybe around 17g. I'm currently using toby's estate woolloomooloo blend, it taste okay when i pull a 40g espresso.Not sure how it will taste like if i only pull a 21~28g espresso from it. I'm pulling 40g for 25 seconds now, if i were to pull let's say ~25g i think it would take less than 20 seconds which is wrong i think ?

best is to ask toby's what is their espresso recipe. Use this to help-
Dose:
Brew ratio or espresso weight:
Temperature:
Are they using stock or VST/IMS baskets (This one makes a huge difference. VST baskets promotes extraction so has higher potential to be bitter):

I have tried toby's rodyk blend and i feel its generally roasted darker than the 3rd wave cafes but much lighter than italian style espresso. Usually for darker roasted coffee i use less dose (14-18g) and lower temps (88-92). Darker roasted coffee is able to extract more easily because the cell walls of the bean is more porous.

If your extraction is even (verify with bottomless portafiler) and everything else (dose, temp, extraction time) is the equal then a shorter shot should generally taste less bitter and perhaps more sour but with more body. Some would say it tastes sweet but I avoid using this to describe because the usage of the world "sweet" to describe espresso is not in the conventional usage of the word in everyday life.

If you pull a ristretto shot by shortening the extraction time (Annette Moldaver/Squaremile recommends this) (eg. 20s) instead of grinding finer or increasing the dose then your shot may taste less bitter at the expense of getting a more sour shot. Usually the 1st past of extraction is sour followed by the more balanced "centre cut" and the last stage is the more bitter/ashy compounds.

I highly recommend separating the 3 different stages of your extractions (10s per cup) into 3 separate cups and tasting each up and writing notes. will really help to understand how extraction works.

The fella puts 29g(40ml) in his caption, maybe he looks at the measuring glass at 40ml then waits for a while for the crema to decrease then he weighs the espresso? That's why the difference between the volume and weight differs by so much ?

29g of espresso weight for a 40ml shot (including crema) is pretty reasonable. Too high volume (60ml) for a 30g shot could mean water to hot or robusta or coffee roasted within 24 hours. To low volume could mean coffee is too old, water/machine is too cold or the dreaded channeling. But I would say don't bother with the crema too much as a measure of what is good. Best to tell is from the taste and smell.