(GPGT)Espresso machine hoot

[prozaizxc]

Whats the difference between bezzera's BZ series and the e61 series?
Whats so special about the E61?
Sorry I'm a noob here I initially wanted to get a rancilio silvia and it would be simple but thought about it more and decided to save up a little more and top up for a slightly better machine.
Also is cleaning difficult or tedious for a machine like be BZ10?
Is cleaning necessary after every use?
What is backflushing and descaling?

 

[Lazy_Tiger]

Whats the difference between bezzera's BZ series and the e61 series?
Whats so special about the E61?
Sorry I'm a noob here I initially wanted to get a rancilio silvia and it would be simple but thought about it more and decided to save up a little more and top up for a slightly better machine.
Also is cleaning difficult or tedious for a machine like be BZ10?
Is cleaning necessary after every use?
What is backflushing and descaling?

U asked many important qns my friend. I suggest reading home barista for some more indepth knowledge. Here are some basics:

Backflush: A cleaning process for the grouphead. Due to the way the grouphead works some machines requires u to run the machine with a blind filter to push clean water through the water path to clean the machine. Backflushing is easy. Some simple machines like the silvia also needs to back flush actually due to a 3way solenoid valve.

Descale: Removing lime deposits from the machine water path by using usually a solvent solution. Singapore water may not need to descale actually. U may want to but I have never descaled any of my machines and they work just fine.

E61: legendary group head. Has certain feature purported to make brewing more forgiving of beginners mistake. Very popular in home machines. Careful to look for real e61 groupheads as some do not have the standard features despite looking similar. Largely superceded by more modern groupheads in commercial machines as the e61 does have its own issues. :
1) progressive preinfusion using a gicleur and preinfusion chamber to gently increase the brewing pressure. Supposedly maintains the coffee puck integrity. Compare with electronic preinfusion.
2) thermosyphon connected to the boiler, to passively heat the grouphead for a stable temperature. Other groupheads may use an active heating element to do this but may run into temp fluctuation problems if not implemented with a thermostat with a tight deadband.
3) 2nd preinfusion option to preinfuse with line pressure ie. pressure coming from your house water mains if connected directly to it.
4) Huge thermal mass, so its more temp stable shot to hot.

Sadly there is a lack of options here in Singapore.
But important qns to ask yourself is:
1. Needs. Do you make straight shots most of the time and the rare occasional latte? or is everyone at home a milk drinker. If milk drinker better get a hx or double boiler. if only straight shots then a pid modded single boiler is not a bad compromise for the money.
2. Your own fussiness/ocdness. Better get a top of the line one with accompaning accesories otherwise will upgrade very fast. PIDed temp control at least. GS3, versuvius, speedster, slayer or maybe even a strada. Some double boilers should be ok too: VBMs, profitec, bezzera, Rocket. Note: Old brewtus machines had a problem with overheated groupheads despite being pid controlled. New ones i'm not too sure.
3. Longetivity: Get a olympia cremina . Swiss made. simple clean design. minimal electronics. design basically unchanged since 1967. 67 models are still available on ebay and you can refurbish it yourself with parts available. Look at a stripped down cremina and you can see where the additional cost comes in. And its a non-spring lever so you can pressure profile all you want.

 

[compuser]

Don't think you need to descale an espresso machine if it's using a boiler cause our water is soft. Look at our kettle.
I read in homebarista forum, it says descaling is bad for pump instead and should not be done unless it's really necessary. The grouphead flushing with detergent should clean most coffee oil already, if necessary. That's easy.

 

[compuser]

You can read a lot about BZ in the german forums, i think they are even more particular and BZ has a good presence there. E61's patent ended long ago already, so it's damn common and easily available, manufacturered by everyone.

BZ's grouphead is heated with its own set of heating element, a modern solution. I think many cafes that are electronic are similar. One clear advantage is it's faster in heating up, less than 10 mins.

E61 is water heated, water is only heated in the boiler.
Once heated up, the hot water cycle around to heat the whole chunk of metal head. As a result, start up time is >doubled<
I wonder why nobody mentioned about such a big flaw. And brewing while it's trying to heat up is equal to brewing at cooler unstable parameters. In even more layman term, the first 15-20 mins at least, it's highly not stable. A terrible news for someone who wants a quick fix.

Actually i don't see which is more superior or stable, because from what i read they both do the same job for the same purpose.
In the E61, when you pull a lot of hot water out, hot water in the boiler will be replaced with cold water from the tank which cool both the boiler and grouphead. So it can still become unstable too.

When you pull a lot of water out of those newer thermal heated groupheads, it has at least two sets heating elements to recover lost heat faster.

In anyway, both types of groupheads serve the same purpose and work in its own way, so i can't tell which is better. One is clearly faster though.

I read some graph patterns before buying, it says if both E61 and a thermally heated reach thermal stable condition after 30 mins(to be fair to E61). The thermally heated groupheads(IE:BZ), will flunctuate a little, but it's just a matter of 0.X degrees.

And honestly i don't think one can even taste 1-2 degree of temperature difference unless you are really carefully trained so how's 0.x degree difference? I'm not sure.
It's like my Char Kuay Tiao hawker one day use 0.5 degree lesser temperature, i don't think i will notice.

It's always the coffee and maybe milk that plays the most part.
Your coffee is not fresh, then it's bad. That's the more important part.
If you are a latte drinker, seriously, the above mentioned about temperature precision matters even lesser.

Any heat exchanger, even the cheapest ones will work well and work better for you cause it can froth and brew at the same time. Single boilers have to wait between your frothing and brewing, by the time it's done, your coffee is cool already. So modify how much also imo is redundant.

My 2 cents cause i once considered like u.

 

[chikyblink]

Also, I cannot emphasize enough on the grinder. The choice of your grinder dictates your shot prep.
Hopper dosing or single dosing.
Doser or doserless.
Manual or electric.

Jim Schulman from HB

a poor grinder is consistently mediocre; while most entry level espresso machines are inconsistent and therefore capable of occasional greatness. The old advice of upgrading the grinder first is based on this idea. You can jump through hoops to coax a great shot from a mediocre machine; but no amount of hoop jumping will ever coax a great grind from a mediocre grinder.

 

[Lazy_Tiger]

BZ's grouphead is heated with its own set of heating element, a modern solution. I think many cafes that are electronic are similar. One clear advantage is it's faster in heating up, less than 10 mins.

E61 is water heated, water is only heated in the boiler.
Once heated up, the hot water cycle around to heat the whole chunk of metal head. As a result, start up time is >doubled<
I wonder why nobody mentioned about such a big flaw. And brewing while it's trying to heat up is equal to brewing at cooler unstable parameters. In even more layman term, the first 15-20 mins at least, it's highly not stable. A terrible news for someone who wants a quick fix.

Actually i don't see which is more superior or stable, because from what i read they both do the same job for the same purpose.
In the E61, when you pull a lot of hot water out, hot water in the boiler will be replaced with cold water from the tank which cool both the boiler and grouphead. So it can still become unstable too.

When you pull a lot of water out of those newer thermal heated groupheads, it has at least two sets heating elements to recover lost heat faster.

In anyway, both types of groupheads serve the same purpose and work in its own way, so i can't tell which is better. One is clearly faster though.

I read some graph patterns before buying, it says if both E61 and a thermally heated reach thermal stable condition after 30 mins(to be fair to E61). The thermally heated groupheads(IE:BZ), will flunctuate a little, but it's just a matter of 0.X degrees.

Pls quote the graph patterns you have read about temp stability in active heated group heads. You must be dreaming if you can claim a fluctuation of 0.x degree celcius for a bezerra. A wind across your group head can cause a change in temp by more 0.5 degrees. With the exception of expensive PID controlled ones on commercial machines and saturated groupheads those active heated groupheads on cheap home machines are controlled by a temp controller with a wide deadband and your coffee will be in consistent at best and overheated and bitter at worse. Yah its a "modern solution" but its not exactly the best if you are particular about the coffee. Its cheap to produce compared to the thermosyphon and thermal mass system required to make a large e61 grouphead.
Temp doesn't make a difference to taste? go and try and brew 2 shots with a 3 degree difference using a pided machine and a bottomless portafilter to verify perfect extraction. The 5 degrees can make a difference between a sour/bitter shot and a balanced shot.
Yes time to heat up for an e61 is slower but you get shot to shot consistently and avoid inconsistent temperature at idle. The thermosyphon design and large thermal mass cushions the grouphead from sudden massive changes in temp that you get with the 2 heating cartrides in the BZ groupheads. The only advantage of the bz grouphead is that its faster to heat up.
Here is vbm's test report following the wbc protocol. 1 degree temp stability with the wbc protocol with 10sec interval per shot! VBM Vibiemme Espresso Machines | VIBIEMME Domobar Double Boiler 2B version 4.0 - Espressocare

I really see a trend among some of the users here who promote bezzera and fine coffee company's products, (there is a thread also on the mass order marketplace threads). Nothing against bezzera and and expobar but don't any how make ridiculous claims without backing up your statements. 0.x degrees??? Even a speedster with a saturated group head and a fuji controller is hard pressed to achieve that accuracy what more a 1k bezzera non-pided machine.....

U also claim that the dual cartridge bz group heads recover heat faster after flushing a lot of water. U must be confused. The 2 heated cartridges are in the group head only. Don't forget about the heat loss from the boiler itself. In anycase flushing lots of hot water into the group head would serve to heat the group head rather than cool it. Why would u want to flush cold water into a heated group head?

 

[maisatomai]

can anyone enlighten me about the coffee bean grinding option? For espresso machine, should it be set to coarse or fine or super fine? What is the difference/

 

[Lazy_Tiger]

can anyone enlighten me about the coffee bean grinding option? For espresso machine, should it be set to coarse or fine or super fine? What is the difference/

Usually between baby power and table salt. Between turkish grind and fine drip. Depends alot on how much u dose and your pressure too. For starters Try to grind fine enough to achieve a 28g espresso shot in 30sec shot with a 14g dose.

What grinder are u using?

 

[maisatomai]

Usually between baby power and table salt. Between turkish grind and fine drip. Depends alot on how much u dose and your pressure too. For starters Try to grind fine enough to achieve a 28g espresso shot in 30sec shot with a 14g dose.

What grinder are u using?

I have a cheap grinder but I don't use it as it is another 2 min of work to brew a coffee. I know freshly grinded powder are the best

I always ask the bean seller to grind for me. He is using a kind of old chinese grinder which you put bean on it and the powder will come out below. I told him I wanted for espresso use and he asked me whether I want it coarse or fine.

 

[Lazy_Tiger]

I have a cheap grinder but I don't use it as it is another 2 min of work to brew a coffee. I know freshly grinded powder are the best

I always ask the bean seller to grind for me. He is using a kind of old chinese grinder which you put bean on it and the powder will come out below. I told him I wanted for espresso use and he asked me whether I want it coarse or fine.

Should be very fine but not to the extent of being like talcum powder.

 

[hardwaregone]

Pls quote the graph patterns you have read about temp stability in active heated group heads. You must be dreaming if you can claim a fluctuation of 0.x degree celcius for a bezerra. A wind across your group head can cause a change in temp by more 0.5 degrees. With the exception of expensive PID controlled ones on commercial machines and saturated groupheads those active heated groupheads on cheap home machines are controlled by a temp controller with a wide deadband and your coffee will be in consistent at best and overheated and bitter at worse. Yah its a "modern solution" but its not exactly the best if you are particular about the coffee. Its cheap to produce compared to the thermosyphon and thermal mass system required to make a large e61 grouphead.
Temp doesn't make a difference to taste? go and try and brew 2 shots with a 3 degree difference using a pided machine and a bottomless portafilter to verify perfect extraction. The 5 degrees can make a difference between a sour/bitter shot and a balanced shot.
Yes time to heat up for an e61 is slower but you get shot to shot consistently and avoid inconsistent temperature at idle. The thermosyphon design and large thermal mass cushions the grouphead from sudden massive changes in temp that you get with the 2 heating cartrides in the BZ groupheads. The only advantage of the bz grouphead is that its faster to heat up.
Here is vbm's test report following the wbc protocol. 1 degree temp stability with the wbc protocol with 10sec interval per shot! VBM Vibiemme Espresso Machines | VIBIEMME Domobar Double Boiler 2B version 4.0 - Espressocare

I really see a trend among some of the users here who promote bezzera and fine coffee company's products, (there is a thread also on the mass order marketplace threads). Nothing against bezzera and and expobar but don't any how make ridiculous claims without backing up your statements. 0.x degrees??? Even a speedster with a saturated group head and a fuji controller is hard pressed to achieve that accuracy what more a 1k bezzera non-pided machine.....

U also claim that the dual cartridge bz group heads recover heat faster after flushing a lot of water. U must be confused. The 2 heated cartridges are in the group head only. Don't forget about the heat loss from the boiler itself. In anycase flushing lots of hot water into the group head would serve to heat the group head rather than cool it. Why would u want to flush cold water into a heated group head?

I bought my home machine back last year, i too bought from the mass order. It's simply cheaper and the collection is much wider. So why not? People like us promote Amazon too, cause it's mainly cheaper and has more stuffs. Why not?
Buying value for money good equipment is wrong? Why?
Maybe it's not a group of forumers thinking it's good, maybe it's you think differently because you have a preferred brand in your heart to push?

BTW i worked in cafe trade and my uncle used to roast and supply coffee to coffee shops then cafe so i do know what i'm talking. And i had been cringing looking at your weird analogies for a long time.

This is hardwarezone, and hardwarezone is famous for its mass order.
If you don't like it then why are you here with us at HWZ?
Why don't stay in your homebarista forum and educate the real baristas there? I'm sure you have better audiences who will vividly listen to the details you say. Cause you can't smoke through there?

I been reading this thread now and then, and i been observing that you are simply snobbish and hard emphasising about niche features promoting a certain brand or you are simply egolistic at best claiming what you think is always right. Seriously i think you should go join some barista competition but not being a keyboard warrior.

To be honest, i don't think what you saying affect the most users.
Which since you are a self claimed expert, should know most Sinkies are latte/flat white/capuccino drinkers. They do not benefit greatly from the neligible temp differences and niche things you said so stop giving a false sense that it's an important thing or die. More to say, don't justify the doubled prices.

How many local cafes out here still stick to using E61? Highlander which taste like !@#$? Why are more cafes using Synesso than E61? A once famous E61 company, the real ECM Italy had already bankrupted and taken over by La Pavoni, rights sold to Rocket. They are all introducing electronic panels and they are getting popular, and the electronic panels removed the "pre infusion" gear which some niche newbie users still wow about. There's no doubt that there's more commercial environment changing from them(e61) than changing to them.

Talking about preinfusion which has more? Lever, Synesso or E61? E61 is last.
Talking about start up time, which is slowest? E61 is again last.
Will those beans roasted by cafes using pressure profiling be suitable for E61? Will single origins be better for E61?
And BTW those new groupheads with a separate heating element, which are plenty nowadays, do recover heat faster.
Cause you don't have to wait for the water from the boiler to heat till ready then circulate around the grouphead and warm up. The grouphead heats up by itself, thus faster. It is already a much better technical improvement.
E61 is more thermo stable, only by your own interpretation and condition.

And before finding out a user's usage trend and recommending him a machine is irresponsible at best. Cause many earlier mentioned newbs asking are latte recipes.

BTW i read the Rao barista book.
Please go look at the credits at the last page, at least half of the people are from Illy who you mocked at earlier. Smartass

Sorry i have to be blunt, because you had always been.

Peace and harmony

 

[hardwaregone]

can anyone enlighten me about the coffee bean grinding option? For espresso machine, should it be set to coarse or fine or super fine? What is the difference/

The finer the better imho, but it's up to you.
The finer it gets, the more area it will expose and the water has to go through more particles to go through.
You will also no need to use that much powder, infact if there's too much powder, the water can't pass through.
Body is weaker if you use less coffee though, but it's smoother and notes are brighter.

Go try and see which you like first.
Rich body or something smoother.
When i say try, i mean try with your mouth, not your eyes.

Cafes like to tell people to use as much powder, but they themselves normally use lesser. haha
Go think why.

 

[compuser]

Pls quote the graph patterns you have read about temp stability in active heated group heads. You must be dreaming if you can claim a fluctuation of 0.x degree celcius for a bezerra. A wind across your group head can cause a change in temp by more 0.5 degrees. With the exception of expensive PID controlled ones on commercial machines and saturated groupheads those active heated groupheads on cheap home machines are controlled by a temp controller with a wide deadband and your coffee will be in consistent at best and overheated and bitter at worse. Yah its a "modern solution" but its not exactly the best if you are particular about the coffee. Its cheap to produce compared to the thermosyphon and thermal mass system required to make a large e61 grouphead.
Temp doesn't make a difference to taste? go and try and brew 2 shots with a 3 degree difference using a pided machine and a bottomless portafilter to verify perfect extraction. The 5 degrees can make a difference between a sour/bitter shot and a balanced shot.
Yes time to heat up for an e61 is slower but you get shot to shot consistently and avoid inconsistent temperature at idle. The thermosyphon design and large thermal mass cushions the grouphead from sudden massive changes in temp that you get with the 2 heating cartrides in the BZ groupheads. The only advantage of the bz grouphead is that its faster to heat up.
Here is vbm's test report following the wbc protocol. 1 degree temp stability with the wbc protocol with 10sec interval per shot! VBM Vibiemme Espresso Machines | VIBIEMME Domobar Double Boiler 2B version 4.0 - Espressocare

I really see a trend among some of the users here who promote bezzera and fine coffee company's products, (there is a thread also on the mass order marketplace threads). Nothing against bezzera and and expobar but don't any how make ridiculous claims without backing up your statements. 0.x degrees??? Even a speedster with a saturated group head and a fuji controller is hard pressed to achieve that accuracy what more a 1k bezzera non-pided machine.....

U also claim that the dual cartridge bz group heads recover heat faster after flushing a lot of water. U must be confused. The 2 heated cartridges are in the group head only. Don't forget about the heat loss from the boiler itself. In anycase flushing lots of hot water into the group head would serve to heat the group head rather than cool it. Why would u want to flush cold water into a heated group head?

Hi,

I mentioned the fluctuation COMPARING an E61 VS a thermal heated grouphead. Not talking about fluctuation occuring barely on either grouphead.
And i mentioned 1-2 degrees won't be able to taste difference by a casual drinker, you put 3-5 degrees. Anymore distortion to win your argument?

When i talk about flushing a lot of water out, it can be from the water wand or from continuous pull for whatever reason.
After flushing a lot of water out, isn't the water in the boiler colder by the cold replacement water injected from the tank? Unless you are telling me your pipes or water tank are serving hot water? I guess not.
Then the E61's system will push the cooler water to the grouphead and the grouphead in turn will also cool down?

Then the machine will need time to recover the metal boiler first => Hot water in the boiler heat up => Hot water recover the heat back in the grouphead.
That's a long step.
A user unless he has a thermomtre on his grouphead, won't know when its grouphead is ready either, so it's a guessing game, how can that be termed as "stable" unless you wait really long enough?

A thermal heated grouphead simply has it's own circultry to heat itself up to continuously maintain the heat whatever the temperature of the boiler becomes.
So once the boiler gets heated up, it's ready. No need to wait for the heat up water to circulate the grouphead and reheat the grouphead. No need to measure the temperature on your grouphead and guess whether it's ready.

As true as it's heating up faster, it's certainly recovering heat loss faster. I don't know what to dispute about that. If fast recovery is not an attribute to a thermo stable system, then what is?

For a commercial environment, maybe E61 with a huge ass boiler is ok. Usage of a lot of water don't matter as a little cold water displacement don't matter, waiting time don't matter.

But we are talking about domestic or office use, where time is an everyday concern unless you are happy with waking up 30 mins earlier to switch your coffee machine on.

 

[derazor]

can anyone enlighten me about the coffee bean grinding option? For espresso machine, should it be set to coarse or fine or super fine? What is the difference/

only got 1 option. SUPER FINE.

 

[IntelFlash]

I have a cheap grinder but I don't use it as it is another 2 min of work to brew a coffee. I know freshly grinded powder are the best

I always ask the bean seller to grind for me. He is using a kind of old chinese grinder which you put bean on it and the powder will come out below. I told him I wanted for espresso use and he asked me whether I want it coarse or fine.

Actually very hard to tell how fine is his fine also.

Just go for the finest he can get then adjust from dosage lor

 

[prozaizxc]

What would be the best espresso machine set up you would recommend with a budget of 1.5-1.7 k total (machine plus grinder) and where to get them?

I only asked about the bezzera because I noticed that finecoffeecompany was selling it and was contemplating getting it from there as its like the only shop I know sells such machines other than highlander whose machines are out of my budget.

Also is the lelit PL53 better or would a lido 2 be good enough for espresso grinds?

 

[Lazy_Tiger]

I bought my home machine back last year, i too bought from the mass order. It's simply cheaper and the collection is much wider. So why not? People like us promote Amazon too, cause it's mainly cheaper and has more stuffs. Why not?
Buying value for money good equipment is wrong? Why?
Maybe it's not a group of forumers thinking it's good, maybe it's you think differently because you have a preferred brand in your heart to push?

BTW i worked in cafe trade and my uncle used to roast and supply coffee to coffee shops then cafe so i do know what i'm talking. And i had been cringing looking at your weird analogies for a long time.

This is hardwarezone, and hardwarezone is famous for its mass order.
If you don't like it then why are you here with us at HWZ?
Why don't stay in your homebarista forum and educate the real baristas there? I'm sure you have better audiences who will vividly listen to the details you say. Cause you can't smoke through there?

I been reading this thread now and then, and i been observing that you are simply snobbish and hard emphasising about niche features promoting a certain brand or you are simply egolistic at best claiming what you think is always right. Seriously i think you should go join some barista competition but not being a keyboard warrior.

To be honest, i don't think what you saying affect the most users.
Which since you are a self claimed expert, should know most Sinkies are latte/flat white/capuccino drinkers. They do not benefit greatly from the neligible temp differences and niche things you said so stop giving a false sense that it's an important thing or die. More to say, don't justify the doubled prices.

How many local cafes out here still stick to using E61? Highlander which taste like !@#$? Why are more cafes using Synesso than E61? A once famous E61 company, the real ECM Italy had already bankrupted and taken over by La Pavoni, rights sold to Rocket. They are all introducing electronic panels and they are getting popular, and the electronic panels removed the "pre infusion" gear which some niche newbie users still wow about. There's no doubt that there's more commercial environment changing from them(e61) than changing to them.

Talking about preinfusion which has more? Lever, Synesso or E61? E61 is last.
Talking about start up time, which is slowest? E61 is again last.
Will those beans roasted by cafes using pressure profiling be suitable for E61? Will single origins be better for E61?
And BTW those new groupheads with a separate heating element, which are plenty nowadays, do recover heat faster.
Cause you don't have to wait for the water from the boiler to heat till ready then circulate around the grouphead and warm up. The grouphead heats up by itself, thus faster. It is already a much better technical improvement.
E61 is more thermo stable, only by your own interpretation and condition.

And before finding out a user's usage trend and recommending him a machine is irresponsible at best. Cause many earlier mentioned newbs asking are latte recipes.

BTW i read the Rao barista book.
Please go look at the credits at the last page, at least half of the people are from Illy who you mocked at earlier. Smartass

Sorry i have to be blunt, because you had always been.

Peace and harmony

Sigh..here we go again. I correct factual errors and strawman & ad hominem attacks come in. here are some thoughts on what you said.

1) Nothing wrong with buying on the forum. Good value for money is not wrong. The key word here is value. Cheaper doesn't mean better value. The problem is users making incredible or inaccurate claims that will confuse buyers. Nobody is judging you for your gear but don't claim temp accuracy which does not exist on the BZ if you can't back it up. I don't push for any brand. If you read all my threads i'm on an upgrade path and have even considered a strega for a lever option.

2) Working in cafe and having an uncle who is a roaster does not make you an expert. I don't claim to be an expert, just an enthusiast. You tell me where have I been wrong and discuss it here.

3) You tell me which of my points i've made are smoke? Yes I also actively participate in HB, CG and BE. I participate here because I enjoy discussing coffee in the local context and I will still tell people off when they make wild claims which confuses everyone. I will stand corrected if some can show me I've made a factual error. Yes I am snobbish. But I will stand by what I say.

4) I don't push or emphasise niche features. I share what i know what is on the market. Speaking of which your BZ heating cartridge is a niche feature...who else in the market carries this?

5) Join a barista competition? Do you stand for president when you frequently complain about politics?

6) Of course I'm aware most are milk drinkers. Nothing wrong with some temp inaccuracy if you only drink milk. But thats not what we are talking about here right?.... A user claims a certain design is accurate when its actually not. I frequently recommend single boilers for those on a budget. SO GET YOUR ARGUMENT RIGHT FIRST before building a strawman.

7) Actually Highlander changes their machines frequently. They have been usage a mirage (if I recall correctly) a VBM (not sure now). anyway highlander is not bad actually when pulled properly. You criticise a cafe because of the machine they use shows your limited knowledge of the cafe industry...the problem is usually on the handle side....

8) About level, synesso and e61 preinfusion...you have no idea what you are talking about....e61 preinfusion with line pressure in mid position can go forever and also combines progressive preinfusion from the preinfusion chamber. And anyway were we even talking about the commercial environment? Of course the e61 is being replaced, it cannot beat saturated groups. So why are you talking about synesso? I already said the e61 is obsolete for commericial environment with heavy usage due to the overly complex mechanical parts.

9) You tell me how many commercial machines uses an active heater in their group heads (which is the "electronics" you claim are replacing the e61)......Lol. synesso, LM, slayer, KVDW, NS are using saturated groups or thermosyphon design. The active heating circuit design on a grouphead is inherently unstable unless you control it with a pid system which mean your machine now has multiple pids for boiler and group head.....so my friend...don't talk kok and smoke thru....Thats why you usually see this in certain home machines who do not emphasise on quality but wants a fast heat up.

10) and lastly..the infamous illy...look at the studies. most are very old. my beef with illy is not their research (many of which is old). like any large corporation they have a large rnd budget. My problem with them is promoting their crappy old beans and still claiming "quality". They are as good as a starbucks. So before you call someone a smartass understand what is going on first or you'll just look like a fool.

11) Points I agree with you: E61 take long time to heat up.

 

[IntelFlash]

What would be the best espresso machine set up you would recommend with a budget of 1.5-1.7 k total (machine plus grinder) and where to get them?

I only asked about the bezzera because I noticed that finecoffeecompany was selling it and was contemplating getting it from there as its like the only shop I know sells such machines other than highlander whose machines are out of my budget.

Also is the lelit PL53 better or would a lido 2 be good enough for espresso grinds?

Depends on what you drink.
Go google the difference between single boiler and heat exchanger first. I think your budget at most is within these two.

If you drink Latte and such, any heat exchanger is more beneficial.

As single boiler need to wait for the boiler to heat to the right temperature when you want to swap between frothing milk and brewing. The boiler heat liao also don't know the temperature on the grouphead is suitable or not, so may create really worse shots.

If you drink espresso only, it's okay and good enough.


Single boiler we have silvia, Bezzera BZ09 and Gaggia I think.
Some fellows earlier mentioned Gaggia left Singapore market.

Expobar pulser is the cheapest heat exchanger, Iirc same price as BZ09 so I see Pulsar is a really value buy.
Of course a certain fellow will recommend a vbn and pull out graphs from an even more exp double boiler series to tell you it's better and claim it's factual. Haha

Use your own judgement and decide.
I think it's the coffee that plays the most part. Your coffee not fresh, do what also useless.

I went to papalhellta cafe, although I know it's a better shot. My friends don't like it because it's too sour. I do appreciate it but also don't know is it because I really like it or simply because of I know the fact they use a 20k machine. So that proves that taste is really up to individual and perception.

Grinder I'm not sure, I still think the benefit of on demand grinder is more worth it cause it's so much more convenient to use. Whatever grinder you will also need to calibrate until it works. I'm not sure of which which can make it easier.

 

[Lazy_Tiger]

Hi,

I mentioned the fluctuation COMPARING an E61 VS a thermal heated grouphead. Not talking about fluctuation occuring barely on either grouphead.
And i mentioned 1-2 degrees won't be able to taste difference by a casual drinker, you put 3-5 degrees. Anymore distortion to win your argument?

When i talk about flushing a lot of water out, it can be from the water wand or from continuous pull for whatever reason.
After flushing a lot of water out, isn't the water in the boiler colder by the cold replacement water injected from the tank? Unless you are telling me your pipes or water tank are serving hot water? I guess not.
Then the E61's system will push the cooler water to the grouphead and the grouphead in turn will also cool down?

Then the machine will need time to recover the metal boiler first => Hot water in the boiler heat up => Hot water recover the heat back in the grouphead.
That's a long step.
A user unless he has a thermomtre on his grouphead, won't know when its grouphead is ready either, so it's a guessing game, how can that be termed as "stable" unless you wait really long enough?

A thermal heated grouphead simply has it's own circultry to heat itself up to continuously maintain the heat whatever the temperature of the boiler becomes.
So once the boiler gets heated up, it's ready. No need to wait for the heat up water to circulate the grouphead and reheat the grouphead. No need to measure the temperature on your grouphead and guess whether it's ready.

As true as it's heating up faster, it's certainly recovering heat loss faster. I don't know what to dispute about that. If fast recovery is not an attribute to a thermo stable system, then what is?

For a commercial environment, maybe E61 with a huge ass boiler is ok. Usage of a lot of water don't matter as a little cold water displacement don't matter, waiting time don't matter.

But we are talking about domestic or office use, where time is an everyday concern unless you are happy with waking up 30 mins earlier to switch your coffee machine on.

1. I agree 1-2 degrees u can't tell the difference. But I call you out u for saying the BZ is stable to 0.x degrees which is ridiculous. I asked you to show me the graph because I know u can't. The graph of the BZ group head is available...and it shows the fluctuation is more than 0.x degrees actually.....So I'm not saying your machine makes bad espresso but you are wrong for claiming something that does not exist. I apologise for mentioning 5 degree difference thing. I think we all agree here that more than 4 degrees can make a difference to taste.

2. Like I mention...why would u flush cold water thru a hot e61 group head (this is only possible with the bz group head).....the mental exercise is pointless and simply academic because there is no real world scenario where u would that......in normal usage the water in the boiler will never be colder than the group head la....its a thermosyphon design. ...boiler temperature is more than 100 degress fyi..group head cannot possibly be hotter because it feeds off the boiler......unless you manually evacuate all the water in the boiler in a few secs. Your scenario can only work for BZ group heads which works with separate heaters for boiler and group head....... Your point would be better illustrated with a when starting up a e61 vs BZ. Side to side the BZ group head should get to temp faster than an e61. That I agree. Fast recovery is not necessary thermo stable. The on off on off wide band nature of the circuit causes the temp to fluctuate. fast to heat up but not stable. Anyway I might as well post this.....the heat up for the bz07 to be stable is 20 mins.....Look at the fluctuation in temp...
(see post 48)
Bezzera BZ07 PM or Expobar Brewtus III ?? - Page 5 - Home-Barista.com


3. Bro I'm not dissing you for your choice of machine. I'm sure you are able to get good espressos from it. If fact I'm considering getting a delonghi eco or rosco for office as a beater. But pls be accurate and stand corrected if proven otherwise...otherwise all just talking kok here.

 

[Lazy_Tiger]

Depends on what you drink.

Of course a certain fellow will recommend a vbn and pull out graphs from an even more exp double boiler series to tell you it's better and claim it's factual. Haha

Halo. When did I recommend the VBM to him? I recommended the option of a fracino which is not even pid controlled for his budget

I can make the claim of knowing that the pid controlled machines are better simply because I have the experience. Even for HX unless you can fine tune your hx process and get Erics thermometer you will have a hard time trying to tune your espresso using temperature as an option. Thats why you have people who can claim highlander coffee is terrible when in fact the problem is the lack of tools/options for the user to tune the parameters to get a desirable taste profile.

I don't just recommend machines....THe bottomless portafilter is critical and a variety of vst baskets are great for getting a balanced flavour profile.