Internet Service Provider (ISP)

perrification

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Seems like M1 is still the way to go. But it's perpetually going on and off since the December outage. I use to have StarHub where I had no issues with. Wanted to change to MR or VQ next given they don't throttle but reviews are quite cui.
 

RLWZ21

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Seems like M1 is still the way to go. But it's perpetually going on and off since the December outage. I use to have StarHub where I had no issues with. Wanted to change to MR or VQ next given they don't throttle but reviews are quite cui.
Sadly...there isn't any perfect ISP in SG :( they have their flaws and best of it can give
 

xiaofan

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Seems like M1 is still the way to go. But it's perpetually going on and off since the December outage. I use to have StarHub where I had no issues with. Wanted to change to MR or VQ next given they don't throttle but reviews are quite cui.

MR should be okay other than the recent outrage.

Starhub is actually not a bad one because they have good offers for new users if you are tired of M1.

From my other recent post in the M1 thread.
If you are not happy with M1, not many choices left. You also need to pay NLT for the charges when switching ISP.

And you need to take note of the following as well. Probably MyRepublic is a good option as long as you do not care about IPv6 (you need to pay the S$50 fee for static IP).

M1: with IPv6, relatively good customer service, less throttling than Whizcomms/Singtel/Starhub for BT

Starhub: good offer for new users, with IPv6, but customer service is not good. Given free router is lousy Nokia Beacon 1.

Singtel: ONR is pretty bad if you want to use your own router as the main router, no IPv6. Throttling of BT and some other activities. Customer service may not be as good as M1.

Whizcomms: no IPv6, throttling is worst than Singtel. Customer service may be worse than Singtel.

Viewquest: unstable internet, no IPv6. Fast speed, no throttling.

Myrepublic: no IPv6, by default using carrier grade NAT (you need to pay S$50 one time charge for static IP). Fast speed but take note upload speed is limited to 500Mbps for the 1Gbps plan. No throttling.
 
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bert64

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Impressions of ISPs in 2020.

1) Best in terms of stability: Singtel; Whizcomms is using Singtel network, therefore it is also pretty stable.

M1 was issued a financial penalty of $400,000 for broadband service disruptions in May, while StarHub was given a penalty of $210,000 for similar disruptions in April. M1 has further breakdowns later.

Viewquest seems to be the worst with constant breakdown for quite a large percentage of users.

2) Fastest: Viewquest and MyRepulic

3) Best in terms of offer for new users and recontract users: Starhub

4) Good latency: Viewquest and MyRepublic and M1

5) Good IPv6 support: M1 and Starhub

6) No or almost no throttling of BT traffic: Viewquest and Myrepublic.

7) Best valus ISP plans: 500Mbps plan from Whizcomms, M1 and Starhub

Overall Best ISPs: it depends on each individual.

"fastest" is based on public reports by speedtest.net, which is exceptionally misleading and almost completely worthless...
ISPs which offer the 500mbps plans will have their averages pushed down compared to those that only offer 1gbps.
Speedtest results are going to be more affected by wifi performance in many cases rather than line speed.
ISPs often prioritise traffic to the speedtest servers, and often host one locally so the traffic isn't even going over any transit/peering links.
Speedtest servers are not representative of real world usage, and everyone's use cases are different.
 

Henry Ng

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"fastest" is based on public reports by speedtest.net, which is exceptionally misleading and almost completely worthless...
ISPs which offer the 500mbps plans will have their averages pushed down compared to those that only offer 1gbps.
Speedtest results are going to be more affected by wifi performance in many cases rather than line speed.
ISPs often prioritise traffic to the speedtest servers, and often host one locally so the traffic isn't even going over any transit/peering links.
Speedtest servers are not representative of real world usage, and everyone's use cases are different.

Agree with the saying that speedtest does not meant anything.
 

xiaofan

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"fastest" is based on public reports by speedtest.net, which is exceptionally misleading and almost completely worthless...
ISPs which offer the 500mbps plans will have their averages pushed down compared to those that only offer 1gbps.
Speedtest results are going to be more affected by wifi performance in many cases rather than line speed.
ISPs often prioritise traffic to the speedtest servers, and often host one locally so the traffic isn't even going over any transit/peering links.
Speedtest servers are not representative of real world usage, and everyone's use cases are different.

What you say of course make sense.

On the other hand, there are reasons behind why Viewquest and MR are the fastest, not really just because of the Ookla SpeedTest results, but rather historically they have more power users joining and less average users.

And arguably VQ and MR are still the fastest if you do real testing comparing average international sites because they tend to have better routing. M1 is probably No 3.
 

xiaofan

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https://forums.hardwarezone.com.sg/...-whizzcom-viewqwest-myrepublic-5969954-3.html

Good info about CGNAT and IPv6 from bert64.

So if you go with MR (all CGNAT), you may want to opt to pay for the S$50 one time charge for the Static IP, which is really a bargain in terms of Static IP.

IPv6 is like all new technology, Wifi6, 5G etc... IPv6 may not technically be *required* yet for most users, but it will still offer benefits to those who have it, and those benefits will increase as more users are using it. There is absolutely no detriment to having IPv6, since you are still provided with legacy IPv4 as well.

Most things will fail over to IPv4 when IPv6 is not available, but will use IPv6 if it's there. But IPv4 is just that, a backwards compatibility protocol intended as a legacy fallback. For instance Microsoft have gone full IPv6-only on their own network and only retain IPv4 for backwards compatibility purposes on public facing devices.

Having two protocols means that you'll have some small level of redundancy to dual stack sites, if one protocol experiences a failure your system will use the other.

IPv6 will usually be slightly faster, and can be a lot faster in certain circumstances (eg for p2p applications where no direct connection is possible with IPv4, resulting in a failover to a client-server model). Lots of games, chat applications etc work this way. The transparent failover to IPv4 means that users won't see an outright failure, but will experience inferior performance.

The more users who have IPv6, the more everyone else can benefit from it too (eg more peers for p2p protocols).

Plus you don't want to sign up to a 2 year contract only to find that a critical application you need to use in future is IPv6-only, better to be prepared in advance. There are already some use cases and sites for which IPv6 is required right now.

It's the same as 5G or Wifi6 really, you will get a better experience if you have it and be more future proofed, but most things will still work (for now) if you don't, albeit in an inferior way.

You don't want CGNAT if you can possibly avoid it. It's an absolute deal breaker if you want to host anything, but it can be detrimental to even the lightest of users.

Many users use p2p even if they don't realise it, for instance common chat applications like telegram are capable of direct p2p communications for lower latency voice/video calls, but will transparently fail back to routing through telegram's servers if p2p is not available.

Why you want to avoid Carrier Grade Network Address Translation (CGNAT)

When the Internet was designed, it was intended as a small research network used by the US military. It was designed so that every device connected to the network has a unique address and is able to communicate.
It was not intended for use on a global scale, so the original protocol developed for it has a finite number of addresses (4 billion), with many of these not even being usable due to design decisions that result in them being wasted or reserved for specific purposes. The end result, is that the legacy IPv4 protocol is not really suitable for a global network with billions of users.

In order to get around this limitation, Network Address Translation (NAT) was invented as a way to allow multiple devices to share a single address.

If you signed up for an internet connection 20 years ago you might have got a block of addresses for your devices, more recently you might only get one address and in some cases (CGNAT) you have to share an address with other users.

If each device has its own address, it becomes a part of the internet and has the capability of full two way communication with other devices on the global network.

If you have a single address, which is currently common for fixed line connections in developed countries, then this address will be assigned to your router which shares it between whatever other devices you have. Only the router really has full two-way communication, although the router can selectively enable inbound communication for devices behind it with limitations.

If you are behind CGNAT, you do not have your own address, you are not part of the Internet but are an outsider looking in.

So what does this mean for users?

In short, a CGNAT connection is inferior to a proper full routed connection.

The longer answer is, how much of a detriment CGNAT causes depends on what you’re using the connection for.

If you are only web browsing and reading email etc:

Performance:

When an ISP implements a network connection using routable addresses, the traffic will leave your router across your line, reach a router at the ISP which will then forward it through one or more other routers before it reaches its destination.
When they are using CGNAT, the traffic has to pass through an additional device - the CGNAT gateway, in addition to the routers. These devices are often expensive. This extra device reduces performance, but by how much will depends on the ISP. If they have invested in high end equipment with sufficient capacity to cover the users then the performance impact might be negligible. If they have under-specced the device, then the performance hit could be severe, but there will always be a performance detriment of some level.

Security measures:

The way the Internet was designed, one address equals one device, and this assumption is still used today. Many sites operate security measures which will restrict access when they detect potentially malicious or excessive traffic from a single address. The sites may block access entirely, might limit access, or they may force users to complete a captcha to provide they are not a piece of automated malicious code.
This causes two problems when combined with CGNAT, as a single address can now correspond to multiple actual users:
All it takes is for one user of the same ISP to do something malicious to a particular service, and all customers can be affected. One user doing something stupid, or one user who’s machine is infected with malware etc.
Because there are now multiple unique users coming from the same address, this could cause a large number of requests (ie lots of individual users) coming from the same address to be perceived as an attack and trigger a response.

Limitations:

As with the security measures above, some sites place limits based on the source address of users. For instance, many free download sites limit you to a fixed number of downloads per day. As the download is based on address, once the download quota has been consumed by one customer, other customers will no longer be able to download.


If you are trying to use peer to peer (p2p) protocols:

Peer to peer protocols are when users connect directly to each other, instead of through a centralised server.
Think of it like driving between two cities. Driving direct will almost always be the fastest route, while making a stop at a third city will be slower. The difference may be small if the third city is on the route between the start and end city, but the difference could be huge if the third city causes you to take a massive detour. Taking this route will also increase traffic congestion at the third city.
On the Internet, this centralised server may be in another country or even on another continent. The impact it will have on performance can vary significantly.

When using p2p protocols:
Users experience faster connections, both lower latency and higher throughput.
The operators of the intermediate servers experience less traffic, resulting in lower costs for them.
Everyone wins.

However, in order for p2p communications to work one party must be able to initiate the connection, and the other party must be able to receive the connection. When you are behind CGNAT you can only initiate connections, you cannot receive.
What this means is that you won’t be able to establish p2p connections with other users who are also behind CGNAT.

Some applications will simply fail to work, while others will prefer p2p, but if they are unable to establish a p2p connection they will fail over to operate in a degraded mode (ie using an intermediate server) with reduced performance.

Many applications use and benefit from p2p communication, including:
File downloading tools such as bittorrent, which are also used internally by some programs to download updates.
* Gaming - p2p connections have less lag, as well as reducing costs for the game operator, some games use p2p connections depending on what you’re playing.
* Voice/video calls - p2p communications allow for higher quality and less lag.


If you are trying to host services:

If you are trying to host any services which will be accessed from outside, either by yourself when you’re away from home, or by other people, then you simply can’t use CGNAT as it won’t work.

Many people want to run a VPN at home so they can access their home systems while outside. CGNAT makes this impossible.
Some people want to operate a personal web server or email server at home, again CGNAT makes this impossible.

There are workarounds in some cases, which involve using a server hosted elsewhere. Not only will this reduce performance, but you will either have to pay for the server, or sacrifice security/privacy by allowing someone else to operate such a server.


IPv6:

CGNAT is only applicable to legacy IPv4, there is a new protocol called IPv6 which has enough addresses to easily support more devices than will ever be manufactured. With IPv6, you can return to the way the Internet was supposed to work with every device having its own unique address.
Not everything supports IPv6 yet, but those things that do will benefit from having full connectivity with no NAT. Similarly, p2p communications will benefit if both parties have IPv6.

TL;DR

CGNAT is undesirable, you don’t want it if you have any alternative.

If you are only web browsing and you can put up with the performance reduction and inconvenience, you may be willing to accept CGNAT if it comes with a significant cost saving and the performance impact isn’t too harsh.
Otherwise, avoid any provider that uses CGNAT and opt for those that don’t whenever you have a choice.

Depending where you are, you might not have any alternative to CGNAT. Eventually due to address shortages, all providers will transition to CGNAT and there will no longer be any choice.

Wether you have CGNAT or not, you should always use a provider which offers IPv6. For any application or service which supports IPv6 you will not have to suffer the detrimental effects of CGNAT. The number of things supporting IPv6 is increasing all the time, at some point you may find everything you want to use is available over IPv6 so having CGNAT on IPv4 no longer presents a problem to you.
 

xiaofan

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Singtel usually has not so good international routing and it is tough to get Singtel to fix it.

https://forums.hardwarezone.com.sg/.../any-isp-decent-routing-europe-6486169-2.html

Here you go, crowdsourcing from local RIPE Atlas Probes:
(interactive slottable lists, click last columb "i" for more route info)




Generally, those ISPs with nice and short AS Path Length are likely to have better routes/least hops.

Nice one. Just looking at the results for the last London server traceroute, it is consistent with the general findings in this forum in terms of internation routing/latency.

Viewquest = MyRepublic > M1 > Starhub > Singtel > Whizcomms (Whizcomms is usually similar or inferior than Singtel as it is on Singtel infrastructure but Singtel may put it to inferior routes).
 

bert64

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What you say of course make sense.

On the other hand, there are reasons behind why Viewquest and MR are the fastest, not really just because of the Ookla SpeedTest results, but rather historically they have more power users joining and less average users.

And arguably VQ and MR are still the fastest if you do real testing comparing average international sites because they tend to have better routing. M1 is probably No 3.

I think the "more power users" is key information. When the services offered are typically 1gbps over fibre, the user's local setup is going to make a significant difference and such users will not only usually have better setups, but also the knowledge to use direct ethernet when benchmarking the actual wan link.

Keep in mind these speedtest sites have been around since the days of dialup and adsl. In those days your wan link might be 0.5-2mbps while locally you would almost certainly have been using 10mbps or possibly 100mbps ethernet, or even a modem directly attached to a computer.
As technologies such as ADSL are extremely dependent on the length and quality of the physical line, the idea of doing a speedtest to a server hosted by the ISP was for testing the physical line. With a short high quality copper line ADSL1 could achieve 8mbps, over a longer line, or one using aluminium instead of copper wiring, or one in poor condition etc you might be looking at 64kbps if the DSLAM will even let you sync at such a low rate. You'd also get modems which would try to sync at the highest rate they can, but become unstable unless you forced the rate down slightly.
You'd even get corner cases where somewhere along the line the plastic wrapping of the wires has deteriorated and allows water ingress, so your connection becomes slower and/or unstable whenever it rains.

For links provided over fibre, and relatively short lengths of fibre at that, benchmarking the local link is of little value except for verifying there's no fault.
 

Henry Ng

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xiaofan

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Actually all our major ISP are same same.

I think they are really not the same for each individual.

Most important rule to me is that "if it ain't broke, don't fix it".

Many people are complaining about their ISP wifi is bad, but in reality it is their wireless router issue (low end router, poor placement, etc).

Do not anyhow switch because of a free router or "better offer".

Still to me M1 seems to be the best value. Starhub is decent as well as long as you give up on the free Nokia Beacon 1.
 

bert64

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I think they are really not the same for each individual.

Most important rule to me is that "if it ain't broke, don't fix it".

Many people are complaining about their ISP wifi is bad, but in reality it is their wireless router issue (low end router, poor placement, etc).

Do not anyhow switch because of a free router or "better offer".

Still to me M1 seems to be the best value. Starhub is decent as well as long as you give up on the free Nokia Beacon 1.

Couldn't agree more. Forget whatever junk router the ISP is offering, buy some quality equipment and set it up properly, use wired backhaul if you need multiple access points to ensure full coverage, use direct wired connections for non portable devices, if you can't manage these things yourself hire an expert to do it for you.

Decent equipment and good structured cabling will be portable between providers if you do decide to change.

It's a small investment to make really, and saves instability and hassle later. A lot of people seem to sign up with an ISP, use their supplied router, find the service is poor (largely due to the router and/or its placement), suffer with it for a year or two depending on the contract terms, switch to another provider and start the same cycle again, each time paying for a new poor performing and badly configured router.
 

Yod4

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what is the price are you paying now for singtel? if the price difference is not significant. dun see a reason to switch out of singtel.

switching ISPs will have extra upfront cost incurred also which will eat into the monthly saving you can have.

no public ip is a bummer for MR. even can pay one time fee for a static public ip, the static ip can be another bummer in future.

You made a good point. I was planning to change from Singtel to M1 but when I did the costs up, there is a negligible difference in price between the two because of the front-loaded costs of switching.
 

bert64

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You made a good point. I was planning to change from Singtel to M1 but when I did the costs up, there is a negligible difference in price between the two because of the front-loaded costs of switching.
Depends, if you solely consider price...

With singtel vs m1 other things worth considering are:
Can more easily use a router of your choice with m1.
Better international routing with m1.
Proper ipv6 with m1.
 

firesong

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You made a good point. I was planning to change from Singtel to M1 but when I did the costs up, there is a negligible difference in price between the two because of the front-loaded costs of switching.
If you can pay the same, but get an objectively better network even with the hassle, would you switch?

I would. I switched from SH to ST and am regretting not insisting on MR/M1 with my folks. When the contract is over, I'm definitely switching out, ST is only worth coming onboard for their mobile and perhaps cable TV offerings. In the case of the latter, I would argue that going direct to Netflix, Amazon Prime Video, and/or Disney+ are probably more value for money offerings though - especially since you're not bound to a ridiculous 2y contract while they remove channels without ever replacing them as in the case of Starhub's Cable TV while still raising the subscription costs over time.
 

yufee

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Couldn't agree more. Forget whatever junk router the ISP is offering, buy some quality equipment and set it up properly, use wired backhaul if you need multiple access points to ensure full coverage, use direct wired connections for non portable devices, if you can't manage these things yourself hire an expert to do it for you.

Decent equipment and good structured cabling will be portable between providers if you do decide to change.

It's a small investment to make really, and saves instability and hassle later. A lot of people seem to sign up with an ISP, use their supplied router, find the service is poor (largely due to the router and/or its placement), suffer with it for a year or two depending on the contract terms, switch to another provider and start the same cycle again, each time paying for a new poor performing and badly configured router.
May I know where to find an expert to help with this. I renovated my place 3 years ago, laid lan ports in all the bedrooms, and living room. As the BD box is inside an metal door (don’t ask me why I agree), my Singtel supplied Modem Router is kept inside the DB Box. I’m on the regular 1 Gb Fibre plan.

Recently I upgraded to a Deco Router / Mesh in the house X60. So I basically ‘swap’ my router from the singtel supplied router (kept inside the dB box next to the ONT etc) to one of the Deco X60 unit. I also use the other 2 Deco X60 as mesh cover.

Equipment linked via lan, 2 laptop (1 work, 1 gaming) 1 desk top (gaming). SingTel Mio
Equipment connect to wifi: 1 laptop (work), Apple TV, Smart TV

IssueS: From Layman description and user experience.
1) Sometimes TV YouTube experience lag even if didn’t stream 4K. 1080p also can sometimes lag
2) Zoom call on lap top sometimes bad connection
3) IPad surfing takes long time to load pages

I wonder if I could upgrade my speed. I also wonder if I could sign up M1 or MR (like good reviews) just for my sons to play their games and leave the singtel for regular use. Possible to have 2 broadband plan? I saw that my ONT have 2 points...(I think it’s call ONT). The first box which receive the fibre cable from outside the house.
 

xonix

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May I know where to find an expert to help with this. I renovated my place 3 years ago, laid lan ports in all the bedrooms, and living room. As the BD box is inside an metal door (don’t ask me why I agree), my Singtel supplied Modem Router is kept inside the DB Box. I’m on the regular 1 Gb Fibre plan.

Recently I upgraded to a Deco Router / Mesh in the house X60. So I basically ‘swap’ my router from the singtel supplied router (kept inside the dB box next to the ONT etc) to one of the Deco X60 unit. I also use the other 2 Deco X60 as mesh cover.

Equipment linked via lan, 2 laptop (1 work, 1 gaming) 1 desk top (gaming). SingTel Mio
Equipment connect to wifi: 1 laptop (work), Apple TV, Smart TV

IssueS: From Layman description and user experience.
1) Sometimes TV YouTube experience lag even if didn’t stream 4K. 1080p also can sometimes lag
2) Zoom call on lap top sometimes bad connection
3) IPad surfing takes long time to load pages

I wonder if I could upgrade my speed. I also wonder if I could sign up M1 or MR (like good reviews) just for my sons to play their games and leave the singtel for regular use. Possible to have 2 broadband plan? I saw that my ONT have 2 points...(I think it’s call ONT). The first box which receive the fibre cable from outside the house.
1 Gbps is more than enough bandwidth for your usage.
Why not just use all 3 x X60 outside the DB ?

SIngTel ONR/ONT ( modem ) > SingTel Router > to all LAN ports
All Deco X60 nodes on wired LAN.
 
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