Proposal Ring - Part 3

[Lydia.Tan]

Hi all, I'm quite new to this section. I have some questions and appreciate if my doubts/ misunderstandings can be clarified.

I made a visit to JannPaul this weekend. It was a great educational session and I learnt a lot and appreciated the service greatly. I was quoted two super ideal cuts with the following specs/ prices:
1) 0.80 VS1 E at SGD 9,600;
2) 0.92 VS1 F at SGD 11,600 (both prices are before the setting).

I thought the prices were rather ideal until I made a trip to Lee Hwa and Soo Kee at Ion. Lee Hwa's service was poor so I didn't venture too much into the details. I was surprised to learn that Soo Kee's diamonds didn't seem too expensive.

For a 0.80 D VVS1 it only costs only 6,500!!! The salesperson proceeded to share with me their quotes for 0.90 carat on the Soo Kee website. I was very surprised to learn that (for varying specs of 0.9), their diamonds ranged around 7k to 11.7k. This meant that JannPaul quoted me very very high for the 0.93 carat one.

While I have my suspicions that the Soo Kee diamonds were not super ideal (since the salesperson kept harping that the 0.80 diamond scored Very Good on Cut on the GIA cert), I can't help but feel that I was way overquoted by JannPaul. Was a super ideal cut truly worth the additional 2-3k when our human eyes can only tell so much, especially when we can't compare both diamonds from both companies side by side.

Can fellow forummers enlighten me if there's something I had misunderstood / overlooked. Was I also overquoted by JannPaul? Would greatly appreciate to hear out some views before I make my second appointment with JannPaul to ask as well.

You are comparing a Super ideal cut and a Very Good cut which is very far off. Super Ideal cut is like the best of the best among the Excellent Cut. Excellent cut within itself is already very wide and there are plenty of bad Excellent graded diamonds. To go even further down to the Very Good grade is guaranteeing a poorly cut diamond.

I think alot of people forget that carat is the weight and not size. A diamond cut too long will look smaller than one with a lower carat but better cut diamond. That's why for those non-Excellent cut diamonds, their prices are very low.. But whether they worth it is another question..

Shop lights play a part too

 

[Euqorab]

I got a 0.55 F VS1 for $4150, so I think it's priced reasonably. The clarity characteristics are certainly not visible to the eye, probably only under a high power microscope. For me that's perfectly fine.

Sent from the dark side of the moon using GAGT

well clarity wise depends on where those flaws are. ask the salesperson to point them out to you in a microscope, question them on whether such flaws will affect the integrity of the diamond etc,l. you should be able to come to a conclusion on that

i think that is about the current quoted price from JannPaul. decent price if it is Hearts and Arrows diamond as well, i.e. super ideal cut. otherwise, you can probably ask for small discount. apart from HCA, you can use Enchanted Diamond cut score calculator. it was pretty good as it accounts for more criteria than HCA, though it is not widely recognised. the diamond i bought received score of 100. anything above 95 is super ideal i think. i used it when looking around for the right diamond.

there are a few other additional tools such as AGA/NAJA cut class. best diamond will be class 1A. it implies for an excellent cut proportion, quite similar to GIA/AGS cut matrix.

cloud and crystal are common for VS quality but VS is mostly eye clean unless the inclusion is dark in colour or at certain spots. ask for more pictures or view the diamond in person.

lastly, please check the fluorescence level of the diamond. none is ideal. dont buy anything medium or stronger. faint is ok but not ideal. if there is fluorescence, the price should be lowered even more.

Thanks all for the comments! I am worried the flaws affect the integrity of the diamond.

** Hunter_L, didn't know got other tools... i tried the cut score calculator and it showed 100 (wow)... the fluorescence shown on the cert is "none"

anyway, here are the images and borrowing the words from martin, i am wondering whether there are any issues with the images... any comments is appreciated! thanks in advance!!

 

[xtwis7]

maybe not a good analogy for the case. instead, take anything with one luxury brand and the other cheaper or less well known brand, then. hypothetically speaking, this is most likely the case.

quite the opposite scenario actually. some of our friends had never heard of JannPaul, including cousins, aunties, uncles and all. literally those people gave a blank, confused or disappointed look. we didnt care nonetheless. our choice our life. seriously who can blame them? i mean JannPaul has only one homepage (facebook and youtube aside) with literally nothing other than contact details on its website, minimal brand awareness campaign locally and even less so in international market. if you go to US or Europe, what are the chances of people knowing Tiffany and Co? and compared to that of JannPaul?

still remember we were telling people and they looked it up online. when they found the homepage, they were like aiyo what is this. how come we never hear one. how come you buy her a ring from this place one... aiya girl, he is so bad buy your ring from this place one... why dont buy from Cartier (insert any other luxury stores)? we were like

nonetheless, some of them knew JannPaul and looked at the stone intensely. said nice nice. good one as well as there were some who just asked how big. every one has his/her definition or approval criteria i guess.

agree on sparkles, as said previously, you can compare sparkles. to compare, only if you have other diamond rings around you. which is like half of the times, give or take. and when you have other rings to compare, lighting plays a role. under spotlight, all diamond shine lights in my SO workplace kinda made it hard for people to tell which is shinier. who has a Gemex machine stashed away in their car, please raise your arm who carry around idealscope in their pocket all the time? sure, higher facet diamonds have more sparkles which are easily distinguishable. only my SO and i get to see it sparkle most of the times.

whichever is more desirable and feels right for the couple, it is the right choice. my SO and i love our purchase, it is our right choice and it doesnt mean all other diamonds bought elsewhere are not right.

lastly, there are some people who look for specific things for symbolic reason. flawless clarity, maybe. certain colour similar to her initial, for example. or the carat with her birth year. the carat with special number to the couple. or even the GIA/AGS certificate number that coincide with special number. others also go with colored gemstones for their preference and additional meaning. are they wrong not to purchase like us? nope! i think they made their right choices. always go with your heart

Very well said. I wouldn't bother so much about what others say. It's also true that comparison scenarios are also a lot rarer than one can imagine. As long as your SO feels happy, nothing should stop you.

 

[dearmisterj]

Thanks all for the comments! I am worried the flaws affect the integrity of the diamond.

** Hunter_L, didn't know got other tools... i tried the cut score calculator and it showed 100 (wow)... the fluorescence shown on the cert is "none"

anyway, here are the images and borrowing the words from martin, i am wondering whether there are any issues with the images... any comments is appreciated! thanks in advance!!

no issues from my point of view. very nice and symmetrical if you ask me on the flaws, how about you head down to JP and ask them to show it to you? cloud may sound scary but i assure you it is just a name for a cluster of pinpoint incursions, and may even be so small you'll have trouble seeing under a microscope (confirmed that with my own diamond ) i personally feel that buying a 'flawed' diamond may be a good value-for-money step, since it allows you additional budget to up the other Cs in the equation to get your ideal diamond. that's of course if they are not visible from the naked eye, barely visible from the microscope and do not affect the integrity of the diamond.

 

[binkypinky]

Thanks all for the comments! I am worried the flaws affect the integrity of the diamond.

** Hunter_L, didn't know got other tools... i tried the cut score calculator and it showed 100 (wow)... the fluorescence shown on the cert is "none"

anyway, here are the images and borrowing the words from martin, i am wondering whether there are any issues with the images... any comments is appreciated! thanks in advance!!

I doubt the enchanted cut score is accurate at all. I see their 100 full score diamonds and they look very bad in the scopes. I think its just a gimmick thing that they make to boost their own diamonds.

The HCA will be much more accurate. It's a 3rd party tool and won't be biased.

This is their 100 score diamonds...

 

[Hunter_L]

I doubt the enchanted cut score is accurate at all. I see their 100 full score diamonds and they look very bad in the scopes. I think its just a gimmick thing that they make to boost their own diamonds.

The HCA will be much more accurate. It's a 3rd party tool and won't be biased.

This is their 100 score diamonds...

indeed, the calculator is only based on cut proportion, it will not determine hearts and arrows or in some degree, the light performance under idealscope or ASET. same as HCA. lower HCA score doesnt always guarantee a hearts and arrows or symmetrical cut or good light performance in ASET. i am sure if you had JP diamond education, they would have mentioned this.

HCA and the calculator has similar purpose which is to weed out mediocre or poorly cut diamonds. each tool has its strength and weakness. HCA only evaluates major facets and thus, things like painting or digging cannot be picked up.

likewise, low HCA doesn't mean hearts and arrows diamond. fyi, even proportion and angles of facets in diamond shown in GIA certificate are average values and they do not account for all 57 or 58 facets.

when used properly, these tools are there merely for simple selection and rejection. to narrow down the choices, use idealscope or even better, an ASET scope. for those who want perfect symmetry, ask for 3D scan of the diamond, usually using sarin machine.

Thanks all for the comments! I am worried the flaws affect the integrity of the diamond.

** Hunter_L, didn't know got other tools... i tried the cut score calculator and it showed 100 (wow)... the fluorescence shown on the cert is "none"

anyway, here are the images and borrowing the words from martin, i am wondering whether there are any issues with the images... any comments is appreciated! thanks in advance!!

congrats on getting perfect score.

from the idealscope and ASET, it looks alright. just a small optical difference between the right and left side of the diamond. in between each arrow, there are more dots on the left side, whereas right side is smaller and even, none. shown as in more contrast areas. it will not cause much problem, and not likely to be seen without loupe or scope.

if you are particular about having super ideal cut with top grade or flawless symmetry, then ask JP for another diamond of similar size, colour and clarity. it is probably just a slight deviation to the facet angles.

fyi, you can have either completely without or with those spots. not exactly a significant criterion for light performance. some may prefer without those as it equates to less contrast area, cleaner look that way. for example of diamond without those small contrast area, see:

for inclusion, just make sure they are not near the edge. or right in centre of table facet. certain spots will make the inclusion appear obviously. you can view the diamond with and without loupe to inspect it closely. if you cant pinpoint the location of the inclusions, ask the sales rep to locate them. cloud can be hard to detect if it is small or medium size, especially if inspected by untrained eye.

Thanks! Am thinking if I should lower the specs and get a 0.7x though..

hi, looking at your images, it looks symmetrical. each arrow looks straight. a small thing to note though. each pair of arrows (of two) will look nicer if they align in a straight line. how to see that? easiest from hearts image, if you follow the black lines in between each heart, that line should cut across the centre (culet) and continue to be straight onto the line underneath (or opposing) it. as a comparison, see page 34. there you can see a good example of straight arrows in solasfera diamonds.

please note though this is not obvious in solasfera with its 10 arrows. in super ideal, it is more noticeable. with more arrows, small deviation of angles will be negligible. if you are quite particular about getting the perfectly symmetrically diamond, ask for alternative solasfera from JP. otherwise, in overall this shouldn't affect the light performance though. great diamond

 

[binkypinky]

I think you missed my point, you're introducing people to use a biased inaccurate cut scoring system. TLDR: the experts on all the other forums diss on this system, it's just biased to their own diamonds. Don't mislead the bros here to use the enchanted diamond cut scoring. Its their bait and switch marketing.

http://www.pricescope.com/forum/rockytalky/cut-score-on-enchanted-diamonds-website-t221988-30.html

http://www.diamondreview.com/forum/topic/9681-ask-us-anything-owners-of-enchanted-diamonds/

 

[Hunter_L]

I think you missed my point, you're introducing people to use a biased inaccurate cut scoring system. TLDR: the experts on all the other forums diss on this system, it's just biased to their own diamonds. Don't mislead the bros here to use the enchanted diamond cut scoring. Its their bait and switch marketing.

http://www.pricescope.com/forum/rockytalky/cut-score-on-enchanted-diamonds-website-t221988-30.html

http://www.diamondreview.com/forum/topic/9681-ask-us-anything-owners-of-enchanted-diamonds/

i am not sure if you are aware that enchanted diamond (or many internet diamond sellers) do not physically own the diamonds. the diamonds shown in their websites are from their suppliers. yes, there are some who have actual diamonds (albeit in smaller quantity) than they have advertised on websites. i dont think their calculator is biased to their own diamonds, otherwise they would have given high score to all their diamonds listed in the website. and for those not listed in their site, they would give low score. if so, the calculator is indeed biased.

i had entered plenty of round diamonds onto this calculator and the results corresponded nicely with HCA. the experts in those pricescope forums are the competitors i think, from crafted by infinity and etc. they complained about bait and switch operation which wont apply to bros here who buy from JP or other local brick-and-mortar shops. for internet shops, i do not recommend enchanted diamond. nonetheless, their cut score tool is useful for selecting brilliant round diamonds.

likewise, HCA has a bias towards shallower proportion diamonds, if you are aware of this. usually deeper diamonds are penalised heavily when assessed with HCA. does that mean HCA is also not suitable for use? in the end, these tools are to help you narrow down your selection. ASET or idealscope is more preferable method to inspect diamond physically.

to remove any possible misleading intention, i must say to use this tool at your own discretion. in no way i recommend enchanted diamond "high cut score" diamonds. peace

 

[binkypinky]

i am not sure if you are aware that enchanted diamond (or many internet diamond sellers) do not physically own the diamonds. the diamonds shown in their websites are from their suppliers. yes, there are some who have actual diamonds (albeit in smaller quantity) than they have advertised on websites. i dont think their calculator is biased to their own diamonds, otherwise they would have given high score to all their diamonds listed in the website. and for those not listed in their site, they would give low score. if so, the calculator is indeed biased.

i had entered plenty of round diamonds onto this calculator and the results corresponded nicely with HCA. the experts in those pricescope forums are the competitors i think, from crafted by infinity and etc. they complained about bait and switch operation which wont apply to bros here who buy from JP or other local brick-and-mortar shops. for internet shops, i do not recommend enchanted diamond. nonetheless, their cut score tool is useful for selecting brilliant round diamonds.

likewise, HCA has a bias towards shallower proportion diamonds, if you are aware of this. usually deeper diamonds are penalised heavily when assessed with HCA. does that mean HCA is also not suitable for use? in the end, these tools are to help you narrow down your selection. ASET or idealscope is more preferable method to inspect diamond physically.

to remove any possible misleading intention, i must say to use this tool at your own discretion. in no way i recommend enchanted diamond "high cut score" diamonds. peace

The enchanted diamond cut score is not useful and in fact very misleading. In your previous post, you yourself said that "it was pretty good as it accounts for more criteria than HCA".

I randomly picked these diamonds online and calculated their HCA score and Enchanted diamond score.

GIA 1179682043
HCA score - 0.9
Enchanted cut score - 97.19

GIA 2196430671
HCA score - 2.6
Enchanted cut score - 97.19

GIA 1156927178
HCA score - 2.4
Enchanted cut score - 97.19

3 different diamonds with different HCA scores have 3 identical Enchanted cut score. A poor proportioned diamond still gets an almost perfect >95 score. This is wrong and misleading. People are already questioning the ethics of this tool online and have debunked it. It should not even be used to narrow down diamonds. One of the them has a very steep crown angle 35.5. That is one of the biggest give away on the proportions but yet it still get a "Super Ideal" cut score. When you say that Enchanted diamond cut score has more criteria than the HCA, you stated it as a fact. But clearly all these lousy diamonds still has a high score.

Quote from prosumer: "The trade-off of having a steeper crown angles is that the lower girdles tend to begin leaking light once you go over a 35-degree crown even if you have a 40.8-degree pavilion. This happens because the lower girdle angles are dependent on the pavilion angle and the lower girdle length and a steeper pavilion causes even steeper lower girdle facets."

TBH, I found most of your posts very misleading and contradicting. Before we carry on, did you really purchase from JP? You mind posting your receipt as proof before we continue our conversation?

 

[1000smiles]

The enchanted diamond cut score is not useful and in fact very misleading. In your previous post, you yourself said that "it was pretty good as it accounts for more criteria than HCA".

I randomly picked these diamonds online and calculated their HCA score and Enchanted diamond score.

GIA 1179682043
HCA score - 0.9
Enchanted cut score - 97.19

GIA 2196430671
HCA score - 2.6
Enchanted cut score - 97.19

GIA 1156927178
HCA score - 2.4
Enchanted cut score - 97.19

3 different diamonds with different HCA scores have 3 identical Enchanted cut score. A poor proportioned diamond still gets an almost perfect >95 score. This is wrong and misleading. People are already questioning the ethics of this tool online and have debunked it. It should not even be used to narrow down diamonds. One of the them has a very steep crown angle 35.5. That is one of the biggest give away on the proportions but yet it still get a "Super Ideal" cut score. When you say that Enchanted diamond cut score has more criteria than the HCA, you stated it as a fact. But clearly all these lousy diamonds still has a high score.

Quote from prosumer: "The trade-off of having a steeper crown angles is that the lower girdles tend to begin leaking light once you go over a 35-degree crown even if you have a 40.8-degree pavilion. This happens because the lower girdle angles are dependent on the pavilion angle and the lower girdle length and a steeper pavilion causes even steeper lower girdle facets."

TBH, I found most of your posts very misleading and contradicting. Before we carry on, did you really purchase from JP? You mind posting your receipt as proof before we continue our conversation?

@Hunter_L, actually i am curious too... mind posting your cert as well?

 

[dearmisterj]

haha turn the heat down a notch people... no need to start a fight over diamonds hahahaha! i guess the thing about diamonds is that no two are the same, so score or not, its the stone that counts

 

[1000smiles]

haha turn the heat down a notch people... no need to start a fight over diamonds hahahaha! i guess the thing about diamonds is that no two are the same, so score or not, its the stone that counts

I think i know what binkypinky is getting at. if you were around since the proposal ring part 2 thread, there was a huge saga. Anyway, its on the news.. you can look it up. I don't see any problem for him to post his cert.

 

[Hunter_L]

The enchanted diamond cut score is not useful and in fact very misleading. In your previous post, you yourself said that "it was pretty good as it accounts for more criteria than HCA".

I randomly picked these diamonds online and calculated their HCA score and Enchanted diamond score.

GIA 1179682043
HCA score - 0.9
Enchanted cut score - 97.19

GIA 2196430671
HCA score - 2.6
Enchanted cut score - 97.19

GIA 1156927178
HCA score - 2.4
Enchanted cut score - 97.19

3 different diamonds with different HCA scores have 3 identical Enchanted cut score. A poor proportioned diamond still gets an almost perfect >95 score. This is wrong and misleading. People are already questioning the ethics of this tool online and have debunked it. It should not even be used to narrow down diamonds. One of the them has a very steep crown angle 35.5. That is one of the biggest give away on the proportions but yet it still get a "Super Ideal" cut score. When you say that Enchanted diamond cut score has more criteria than the HCA, you stated it as a fact. But clearly all these lousy diamonds still has a high score.

Quote from prosumer: "The trade-off of having a steeper crown angles is that the lower girdles tend to begin leaking light once you go over a 35-degree crown even if you have a 40.8-degree pavilion. This happens because the lower girdle angles are dependent on the pavilion angle and the lower girdle length and a steeper pavilion causes even steeper lower girdle facets."

TBH, I found most of your posts very misleading and contradicting. Before we carry on, did you really purchase from JP? You mind posting your receipt as proof before we continue our conversation?

looking at the efforts you put in to pull random online reports dated 2014, you seem determined to make your case. i understand your point and frustration. in the same way GIA/AGS certificate has their own grading system, for example. GIA triple excellent also has broad definition and covers wide range of parameters. and seeing how you are being specific on crown angle, i think you have in mind strict parameters on your diamonds.

in all, my point being all these available tools are good for selecting diamonds. if you feel that it is misleading, please note to use it at your own discretion. as said, each tool has its own strengths and weaknesses. if you feel this tool is not correct or biased, then so be it.

i think this has heated up quite abit as well and not for bros here. if you wish to discuss, please pm me no offence bro

 

[binkypinky]

looking at the efforts you put in to pull random online reports dated 2014, you seem determined to make your case. i understand your point and frustration. in the same way GIA/AGS certificate has their own grading system, for example. GIA triple excellent also has broad definition and covers wide range of parameters. and seeing how you are being specific on crown angle, i think you have in mind strict parameters on your diamonds.

in all, my point being all these available tools are good for selecting diamonds. if you feel that it is misleading, please note to use it at your own discretion. as said, each tool has its own strengths and weaknesses. if you feel this tool is not correct or biased, then so be it.

i think this has heated up quite abit as well and not for bros here. if you wish to discuss, please pm me no offence bro

Once again you are contradicting yourself. If you want some validity, show us your proof of purchase (which you are obviously ignoring). This isn't the first case on this thread that someone acted as a purchaser of a product but holds 2 sides of the coin.

All people have to do is to read in-between your lines and its obvious what you are trying to do. Why don't you just prove that you are a genuine purchaser? Unless you have something to hide.

 

[quanTom.6]

bro, just show your cert la

 

[Big Dan]

Dear Diamond Pros/Masters/Experts,

I am new here. I seek all your kind advice and views on the following diamond: GIA 6221154607

Thank you all and look forward to hearing your views please!!!

 

[dearmisterj]

Dear Diamond Pros/Masters/Experts,

I am new here. I seek all your kind advice and views on the following diamond: GIA 6221154607

Thank you all and look forward to hearing your views please!!!

Score looks good. I would have some concerns on the incursions though.. seems like a whole lot going on at the 9 oclock area of the diamond, not sure if that may cause the diamond to chip easily? How do the scopes look?

 

[Euqorab]

Score looks good. I would have some concerns on the incursions though.. seems like a whole lot going on at the 9 oclock area of the diamond, not sure if that may cause the diamond to chip easily? How do the scopes look?

Curious, why does this GIA report show the inclusions but reports for other diamonds do not show? Or is it 1 carat and above then have?

 

[Lydia.Tan]

Dear Diamond Pros/Masters/Experts,

I am new here. I seek all your kind advice and views on the following diamond: GIA 6221154607

Thank you all and look forward to hearing your views please!!!

Wow.. a D colour
HCA is 0.7 which is good. Just need to check for light leakages and symmetry with the scopes.

 

[Lydia.Tan]

Curious, why does this GIA report show the inclusions but reports for other diamonds do not show? Or is it 1 carat and above then have?

I realised that too. Only 1 carat and above then they will have the inclusion picture diagram on the cert. For AGS, they they will still show it for all.