SIM Juris Doctor Programme

[blanque]

SIM is launching a Juris Doctor Law Programme, anyone got any advice on this as I'm thinking of signing up for the course..

It's part time.

 

[Pineapple.wong]

Do you like O and A level Maths? Because if you don't the LNAT will kill you.

I suppose if you think being a lawyer is fun, prestigious or (insert your preferred adjective) I suggest you think again. A full time job and part time law degree, along with the LNAT and presumably another entry test and interview? You could Not pay me to do it. Not with a demanding full time job. No thank you.

 

[intime]

SIM is launching a Juris Doctor Law Programme, anyone got any advice on this as I'm thinking of signing up for the course..

It's part time.

Do note that aside from the entry requirements, they are also looking for candidates with a certain experience and inclination, such as social work, law enforcement and prison.
If you do not have those, you will most likely not get in due to the extremely high competition for law degrees.

And if you manage to get in, you will be one of the first few batches, there will be a lot of experimentation with the curriculum, untested collaborations with Courts here and many feedback to give. So take your risk.

 

[Pineapple.wong]

Extremely high demand for law degrees but very Low demand newbies. Buy at your own risk...

Do note that aside from the entry requirements, they are also looking for candidates with a certain experience and inclination, such as social work, law enforcement and prison.
If you do not have those, you will most likely not get in due to the extremely high competition for law degrees.

And if you manage to get in, you will be one of the first few batches, there will be a lot of experimentation with the curriculum, untested collaborations with Courts here and many feedback to give. So take your risk.

 

[LeSaux]

Do you like O and A level Maths? Because if you don't the LNAT will kill you.

I suppose if you think being a lawyer is fun, prestigious or (insert your preferred adjective) I suggest you think again. A full time job and part time law degree, along with the LNAT and presumably another entry test and interview? You could Not pay me to do it. Not with a demanding full time job. No thank you.

Anyone received their LNAT results?

 

[blanque]

Yup I did..I got 25

 

[lunarsong]

i've got 16 for LNAT

got an SMS & email to book my interview, fixed on 2 Aug 2016

i applied for the Degree though, not Juris Doc even though i had a degree from UniSA through distance learning in Kaplan

 

[LeSaux]

Yup I did..I got 25

Wah I got 19 only

 

[quintessentialedu]

global average is 22. haha i think if can get that range is good enough?

 

[gentori]

How long did you guys wait to get the LNAT score?

 

[Genesisz]

Do note that aside from the entry requirements, they are also looking for candidates with a certain experience and inclination, such as social work, law enforcement and prison.
If you do not have those, you will most likely not get in due to the extremely high competition for law degrees.

And if you manage to get in, you will be one of the first few batches, there will be a lot of experimentation with the curriculum, untested collaborations with Courts here and many feedback to give. So take your risk.

Study law is one thing and to work in a law related environment or legal profession is another.

Those who are interested, please think and consider properly.

 

[humedo]

i've got 16 for LNAT

got an SMS & email to book my interview, fixed on 2 Aug 2016

i applied for the Degree though, not Juris Doc even though i had a degree from UniSA through distance learning in Kaplan

Congrats on getting the interview! Mine is 2 days after yours, would you mind sharing with me how the structure of the interview is like when you complete yours?

Good luck and hope to see you around when classes commence

 

[lunarsong]

I've completed the interview today, was told that there is a total of 450 applicants for the course and they are selecting only 60.

Was first given 5 mins to 'market' myself why i should be chosen as 1 of the 60, then why i want to be a lawyer.

after a few general questions after they got to know me better, the questions became more catered to you rather than the generic ones.

I was quite taken aback when i was asked if i did any community work. if don't have just say don't have, if have just elaborate more.

 

[intime]

I've completed the interview today, was told that there is a total of 450 applicants for the course and they are selecting only 60.

Was first given 5 mins to 'market' myself why i should be chosen as 1 of the 60, then why i want to be a lawyer.

after a few general questions after they got to know me better, the questions became more catered to you rather than the generic ones.

I was quite taken aback when i was asked if i did any community work. if don't have just say don't have, if have just elaborate more.

Wow that's quite some competition... only about 13% acceptance rate if by the numbers from you.

I guess the community work part is another check box in their interview sheet, those that don't have will have to pray that their other qualifications and exp, etc, can make up for the lack of it.

 

[kaixin18]

Yup I did..I got 25

i've got 16 for LNAT

got an SMS & email to book my interview, fixed on 2 Aug 2016

i applied for the Degree though, not Juris Doc even though i had a degree from UniSA through distance learning in Kaplan

Wah I got 19 only

global average is 22. haha i think if can get that range is good enough?

I scored 35 for the LNAT two years ago. Currently in a top 5 UK uni. If you have scored lower than 20 in the LNAT you are bound to struggle to cope with the rigour of a law degree. Law degree is no walk in the park. Even if you scrap through law school with shitty results your pedigree is bound to be found out if you go to court or worse, if you have to liaise with opposing lawyers with better quality.

Of course the SIM law course will be much simpler in terms of content as compared to US and UK law syllabus. The SIM course is tailored for working adults who have commitments in SG thus can't venture overseas for studies. Either that or the overseas uni fees are too high and they can't afford a foreign education.

People reading this need to understand something. The law syllabus in SG unis is very much controlled. If you want an all rounded law degree, pursue law at a UK uni. You can consider US unis too but US law course is postgraduate degree which means you need a good first degree to gain entry.

Some people worry that after graduating with a UK law degree it is difficult to get job in UK. That is true but if you never try you will never know. Another reason is also the possibility that Chinese face racism in UK. This is somewhat true and it is a pity that fellow Singaporeans choose to return to SG to be in their comfort zone instead of not throwing in the towel so early on.

To me I think its a pity. Singapore is a hotel. It's a great place for foreigners to come, earn a good living, work the system and return to their home countries when the time is right with tons of money in tow.

So if you're a Singaporean studying in US, UK, Canada, Australia, New Zealand then give yourself a chance and see if you can get a job in those countries. Not many people are fortunate to be able to study abroad due to high fees and at times high pre-requisite results required. But being a selecte 'few', maximize the chance you have and carve a better life for yourself and your future generation.

Anyone who has studied overseas knows that overseas beats Singapore anytime in terms of quality of life, cost of living, work-family life and the whole 9 yards.

 

[LeSaux]

If you have scored lower than 20 in the LNAT you are bound to struggle to cope with the rigour of a law degree.

So 19 is the borderline?

 

[Pineapple.wong]

Kaixin, do you have any idea what it cost to study in Singapore putting aside the fairness of charging said fees?
The bloody fees at the postgraduate level which is unsubsidised run at $70,000 for SMU and close to $100,000 for NUS. So I can tell you for one that price is not a matter when a UK degree inclusive of living outside of London will run you at about $120,000.

If I'm an idiot looking in, S'pore law school, qualify for Singapore bar; UK law school, must take 1 year additional part A & B bridging to qualify, guess where will I go? The answer is staring at you. A 13% acceptance rate for a PART TIME Programme while you're doing yours at your nice top 5 Uni FULL TIME. That's why the fees are cheaper for UniSIM.

The whole point of UniSIM seems to escape you---fill up the gaping hole that is family and criminal Lawyers.

Stop misleading the people when half the qualifying UK degrees got the axe last year. ONE year ago. Already there are not enough of the commercial lawyering jobs to go around. So why pit a U.K. Degree against a local one when the most important thing is to qualify for a bar, be it UK or Singapore.

You putting it the way you did is just misleading them to think that just because you FEEL uk is better therefore it IS better. Newsflesh, you could be from Oxbridge and you can't pass the bar? You need to find a new job.

I will repeat my point that it is too bad that even without the bar exams, there already aren't enough commercial lawyering jobs BOTH in the UK and Singapore to go around assuming everybody passes the bar. The economy has been tanking since 2008 if you have not realised by now.

Come on! Give me a better argument than this pre-2009 rehashed to hell argument that you are still pushing. I'm inclined to dismiss your whole post when you stated the cheaper fees here which is untrue. Without the government subsidy that everybody pretends to be invisible, the fees are equally high if Not higher here in Singapore.

 

[kaixin18]

If you have scored lower than 20 in the LNAT you are bound to struggle to cope with the rigour of a law degree.

So 19 is the borderline?

For the top UK unis a score of 19 is considered low. As for SIM's standard nobody knows cos its a new course. But look at this from another angle. If you score 19 on your LNAT but you have glowing references from employers, good CCA background etc do you think these components will make up for your disastrous showing on the LNAT? Of course not.

Singapore's style has always been to be different from other countries. Perhaps the LNAT score won't be that much of a factor when being awarded a place at SIM's law school but if that is the case then why should SIM subject students to do LNAT? It defeats the purpose.

The LNAT is designed to streamline those who cannot think critically from those who can. In a UK uni setting, if you're an admissions tutor, the logical thing to do is to automatically dismiss the applications of those who score below 20, given that there are only 60 places on the course. This makes it easier for the admissions tutor. Agreed?

On top of this there are interviews to convince and impress the interview panel as to why you deserve a place on this programme. So this acts as a further filter. Once there have a sizeable number of positive applications/applicants, these students will form the pioneer batch.

SIM is not gonna accept students who scored lowly for the LNAT. That is a given. The question is what then is the threshold? If you ask me, it should be 26 and above. Cos don't forget the LNAT is out of 42.

Most people want to do law cos lawyers earn a lot of money. What people make in a month, lawyers can make in half a day to a full day. A criminal case already can cost $3000 upwards so you tell me if I am making sense?

Kaixin, do you have any idea what it cost to study in Singapore putting aside the fairness of charging said fees?
The bloody fees at the postgraduate level which is unsubsidised run at $70,000 for SMU and close to $100,000 for NUS. So I can tell you for one that price is not a matter when a UK degree inclusive of living outside of London will run you at about $120,000.

If I'm an idiot looking in, S'pore law school, qualify for Singapore bar; UK law school, must take 1 year additional part A & B bridging to qualify, guess where will I go? The answer is staring at you. A 13% acceptance rate for a PART TIME Programme while you're doing yours at your nice top 5 Uni FULL TIME. That's why the fees are cheaper for UniSIM.

The whole point of UniSIM seems to escape you---fill up the gaping hole that is family and criminal Lawyers.

Stop misleading the people when half the qualifying UK degrees got the axe last year. ONE year ago. Already there are not enough of the commercial lawyering jobs to go around. So why pit a U.K. Degree against a local one when the most important thing is to qualify for a bar, be it UK or Singapore.

You putting it the way you did is just misleading them to think that just because you FEEL uk is better therefore it IS better. Newsflesh, you could be from Oxbridge and you can't pass the bar? You need to find a new job.

I will repeat my point that it is too bad that even without the bar exams, there already aren't enough commercial lawyering jobs BOTH in the UK and Singapore to go around assuming everybody passes the bar. The economy has been tanking since 2008 if you have not realised by now.

Come on! Give me a better argument than this pre-2009 rehashed to hell argument that you are still pushing. I'm inclined to dismiss your whole post when you stated the cheaper fees here which is untrue. Without the government subsidy that everybody pretends to be invisible, the fees are equally high if Not higher here in Singapore.

Clearly you have touched on points which I did not make or state. Nowhere in any of my previous posts did I mention about postgraduate law degrees. I have only referred to the basic LLB degree. Your post tells me a few things about you which I will address in my last paragraph of this post.

One of the many myths being perpetuated - which you raised in your diatribe above - is that the creation of SIM law school to 'fill up the gaping hole that is family and criminal Lawyers'.

Do you honestly think that SIM law graduates in the future will only remain and practise within criminal and family law? Of course not! They will eventually venture into finance aspect of the law cos thats where the money is.

You must also bear in mind that the minister has already said that there are no restrictions on the SIM law graduates in future to not venture into other aspects of the law besides criminal and family law. Think critically; doesn't this defeat the purpose of the SIM law school?

You are mistaken. There are plenty of law jobs in Singapore. The problem is people are not looking at the right places or not looking hard enough.

Now I come to you. If I were to hazard a guess, you're either a
- law graduate from the external law degree from University of London which is not recognized by the Board of Legal education in Singapore to be a lawyer

- applicant to the SIM law school who has done miserably on the LNAT

- Temasek Poly law and mgmt diploma graduate who cannot get in NUS or SMU and/or has no money to go overseas to do the law degree

- a clerk in a law firm who will remain in that position for years to come even though you know you can perform the role of a lawyer if only you had the means to complete a recognized law degree.

I wish you well.

 

[Pineapple.wong]

Taking your point about SIM graduates being able to move outside of criminal and family law proves my point. If there is already a hole, and people are free to move, behold the hole is still there & wherever they all move to will be overflowing with people.

I can humor you and point to ST, a Govt mouth piece, has countered your point about new Lawyers earning well. Junior Lawyers starting out are not earning and no matter what minlaw and you can say will not change the fact that there is not as high a demand for Lawyers with below 5 years PQE. Economics does Not agree with your logic.

About the postgraduate point, you obviously decided to skip over the part about it not being subsidised. Twice. A law degree is a law degree. You can say a postgrad one is not comparable to an LLB. But hey, I'm not disputing you---you just showed everyone your bias & how much of a bubble your arguement lives in.

For those of you who care enough for your future, go Google the amount an IT systems administrator earns in comparison to a junior lawyer.

There is simply no Recognising the fact that working adults have a salary and the ability to pay. If you choose to work to finance your studies or choose the wrong kind of school to get one, be ready to be viewed as substandard & be mocked by Kaixin.

Also, there's no winning or even making a point when questioning who I am as a proxy for my credibility rather than my argument is seen as a good counter argument.

It's a cold world out there and for those of you who subscribe to kaixin's 1965 view of lawyering being a glamourous and high paying job; don't complain about not being warned when you find out just how many hours worked per day it takes to get to said high salary.

And obviously I wish y'all all the luck in looking in the right places for jobs least kaixin comes back to point out how stupid you are for looking in the wrong places or worse too lazy to start looking in the right places.

I'm out of this place.

 

[Genesisz]

Mai quarrel. Mai argue.

We can agree to disagree.