(GPGT)Espresso machine hoot

[patryn33]

come on lah...mr salvatore obviously has many other hands and legs working for him..

dude that I know, but I was just replying to the post below. U may wanna highlight that to joe below.

This old man don't know got 6 years or not

 

[patryn33]

Got this coffee for the weekend

According to them , it's OK for espresso and it's light roast
Papa Palheta | Coffees | Suke Quto

enjoy!
just ordered mine from madcap for the weekend

 

[IntelFlash]

Hey guys,

Thank you all for your wonderful replies in helping me make an expensive decision to hoot a good espresso machine that can hopefully last a couple of years.

I decided that PID and double boiler is a little overkill for me so I would most likely go with either a Bezzera Mitica or BZ13. Still don't know what's the difference between the E61 grouphead and their propriety grouphead.

Btw, do you guys have any recommendations of coffee roasters to visit in Bangkok? I just touched down in Bangkok and would like to visit and a few places and grab some good blends and SOs.

Thanks in advance!

Why you don't want to email the manufacturer or the local company direct?

sales@bezzera.it
luca@bezzera.it
info@finecoffeecompany.com

You must understand that the people here all own mostly just one machine, not trained and can't really do comparison.
All hearsay hearsay.

I actually emailed Bezzera.it and it was replied by some fellow with the surname Bezzera.

So i guess it's really still linked to Luigi Bezzera, the mechanist who found the real Espresso machine 100+ years ago.
They replied more indepth information than the normal information you find on forums. From i can feel, if they make anything, the odds are they have good grounds to back it up and have confidence in it.

 

[DriftKing]

Wah you really hard sell.

I have to support rosli on what he said here... technically if we arent totally fussy, a Gaggia Classic and Rancillio Silvia will suffice for all the people reading here unless he's running a cafe, or have 10 family members screaming for coffee at one go. Anything more are just luxury. (But we do like luxury don't we)

All machines doesnt need extensive flushing . I had a Diadema Junior Extra, HX machine, doesnt need flushing AT ALL for 2 years, heck I didnt even descale just routine cleaning around the grouphead, notice no drop in quality at all. The only variable was my technique. But this shows also that a proper tuned machine will run effortlessly. Just wish the boiler is bigger for drier steam.

Anyway the Bezzera Mitica(?) is priced pretty decent actually it will be a workhorse and won't skip a beat I believe with proper care. It seems that we are finally getting much closer price the Aussies are getting those lucky people .... I've seen people selling their 2nd hand spanking new LM GS3 for $5k AUD !!!!!

PS: Does anyone know how much a first hand LM GS3 cost here and is Wine-Berry the only distro for LM?

 

[Lazy_Tiger]

dude that I know, but I was just replying to the post below. U may wanna highlight that to joe below.

my bad. the reply was for intelflash.

 

[Lazy_Tiger]

I have to support rosli on what he said here... technically if we arent totally fussy, a Gaggia Classic and Rancillio Silvia will suffice for all the people reading here unless he's running a cafe, or have 10 family members screaming for coffee at one go. Anything more are just luxury. (But we do like luxury don't we)

All machines doesnt need extensive flushing . I had a Diadema Junior Extra, HX machine, doesnt need flushing AT ALL for 2 years, heck I didnt even descale just routine cleaning around the grouphead, notice no drop in quality at all. The only variable was my technique. But this shows also that a proper tuned machine will run effortlessly. Just wish the boiler is bigger for drier steam.

Anyway the Bezzera Mitica(?) is priced pretty decent actually it will be a workhorse and won't skip a beat I believe with proper care. It seems that we are finally getting much closer price the Aussies are getting those lucky people .... I've seen people selling their 2nd hand spanking new LM GS3 for $5k AUD !!!!!

PS: Does anyone know how much a first hand LM GS3 cost here and is Wine-Berry the only distro for LM?

Wah you really hard sell.

Heh not really hard sell. I did mention that the silvia can also make good espresso. My point is espresso machines are not the same and generally different models are more expensive a reason. The longer u stay in this hobby, the more drinks u make, the more different espresso blends u explore and the more u refine your technique u will wish u have a tool that can be as precise and yet as flexible as possible. Thats why I advocate getting the best for the money if you are serious and are in it for the long term. Cheapest is not value for money.

The key word is as you mentioned, "fussy". While the silvia or other similar single boilers are fine, the problem that if you want consistency in your espresso you need to be precise with your routine. That is very leh cheh esp for a home user or newbie that does not want all the trouble with temp surf and almost perfect dose distribution for machines with no preinfusion. Very easy to get bitter or sour shots if the machine had a wide dead band. Thats why if have the budget the recommendation would be at least for a HX and being very familiar with the temp characteristics of the HX or....just get a pid.

Whether your machine needs a long or short cooling flush or not depends on how its tuned. I'm not familiar with the diadema hx but if what you describe is true then your idle temp is just nice for brewing but it will have a long rebound time after you pull your shot. Though I very much doubt this is the case because this is a design problem for HX where the remainder of the water passing through your hx after the 1st 5 seconds will be cold. Could be you did not idle the machine long enough in your usual brewing routine to need a cooling flush....

or......

I could be mistaken and you are actually refering to backflushing or just running water through the grouphead to clear water in the group. I'm refering to a cooling flush in my exchange with rosli. Rosli was also refering to a cooling flush initally when he talked about "smoke effect" but later flip prata and say he was taking about stale water in the e61 group (his so called "channeling points"). The necessity to flush out stale water from the group before brewing (for DB and SB) is very debatable....The water left in the e61 group is very little. But if you concerned about stale water in the group then might as well flush water out of the entire boiler too everytime when starting up the machine...500ml for most double boilers, 1litre plus for brewtus. Anyway after brewing, its standard routine to rinse and brush the shower screen from the old grounds.... so flushing one more time (DB and SD) before brewing is just for mental comfort and may not be suitable for non-PID controlled boilers with a wide temp deadband.

I agree we are paying through the nose for some brands of machines here.

Wineberry is the official distributor but I saw the GS3 being sold at oriole about 1 year ago for 9K plus if i'm not wrong. Not sure if they still sell it.

coffeeparts.au sells the cremina and gs3, if directly convert to SGD should be cheaper than in singapore but GST and shipping and possible no warranty support doesn't make it worth it.

Londinium is quite tempting but I worry about warranty support too.

Jimmy Monkey sells slayers if you are interested

 

[Lazy_Tiger]

Any lever expert here familiar with how the preinfusion works for lever machine?

I understand for lever machines the water in the boiler is above boiling and when this water is introduced into the brew chamber (by pump or by boiler pressure) wouldn't the water be extremely hot and burn the coffee during the preinfusion?

ah but people have been swearing by lever machines so I guess it doesn't really matter.

Maybe adds more "complexity" and "depth" to the taste profile

 

[Coffee in a place]

Thanks for the info! Do let us know when the redbird and blue jaguar is coming in!

No problem. Sure will.

 

[Coffee in a place]

Any lever expert here familiar with how the preinfusion works for lever machine?

I understand for lever machines the water in the boiler is above boiling and when this water is introduced into the brew chamber (by pump or by boiler pressure) wouldn't the water be extremely hot and burn the coffee during the preinfusion?

ah but people have been swearing by lever machines so I guess it doesn't really matter.

Maybe adds more "complexity" and "depth" to the taste profile

We are no experts, just sharing from experience.

Take for example the manual lever like the Olympia Cremina. Olympia Cremina uses a dipper design. Dipper designs sit too cool at idle yet run hotter if you draw enough water through the group to exhaust the thermal capacity of the group. The extent to which the dipper design is successful in delivering water at the correct temperature to the ground coffee depends on the ability of the group to bring the water as it exits the boiler at well over 100C down to say 92-94C by the time it makes contact with the coffee. The group head of the Cremina is made of chrome plated brass which is capable of dissipating heat to its optimal temperature before the water hits the coffee grounds. However, if extraction is made consecutively, say 6 shots in a row, there will not be enough time for the group head to cool down which will ultimately results in burnt coffee. That is to say, after the 6th shot, the group must be allowed time to idle and cooled before the next extraction. This is why Cremina is meant for domestic use because of the mass of its group head. It is not meant to entertain large groups and pulled shot after shot. So no, it will not burn the coffee if it is used correctly.

I prefer clarity when referring to shots pulled using lever machines. The adjectives bear no meaning until you have tried it yourself. Only then, you can tell the differences from those by the pump driven ones.

 

[rosli8079]

Heh not really hard sell.

I could be mistaken and you are actually refering to backflushing or just running water through the grouphead to clear water in the group. I'm refering to a cooling flush in my exchange with rosli. Rosli was also refering to a cooling flush initally when he talked about "smoke effect" but later flip prata and say he was taking about stale water in the e61 group (his so called "channeling points"). The necessity to flush out stale water from the group before brewing (for DB and SB) is very debatable....The water left in the e61 group is very little. But if you concerned about stale water in the group then might as well flush water out of the entire boiler too everytime when starting up the machine...500ml for most double boilers, 1litre plus for brewtus. Anyway after brewing, its standard routine to rinse and brush the shower screen from the old grounds.... so flushing one more time (DB and SD) before brewing is just for mental comfort and may not be suitable for non-PID controlled boilers with a wide temp deadband.

I agree we are paying through the nose for some brands of machines here.

WTF sia, you really don't read and still just want to plain hard sell.
Flip prata liao, throw to me, say i flip.

I said FIRST flush before and after the last cup and channeling points are those ****ing tubes in between that are not in the influence of control from any PID.

The first pull beside remove stale water, help the grouphead heat up faster and helps to clear any residue dried residues of any. The last pull is to clear the remnants and the oil.
This is pretty common sense and don't tell me your machine has any amazing technology to auto clean.

You flush after idling cause the water in between the grouphead and your boiler needs are idling are settling away from the set temp.

Anyway HOW HARD is flushing?
You are not pulling a 30KG machine 30KM.
It's pull down the lever for few seconds.

If you are not a temperature geek, you don't even need to do anything nor flush anything.
If you are making just one cup in a day, **** flushing.
All the decent HX or DB machines will still set the machine to a set optimal temperature.

So please do not keep creating all the mysterious points to new users, confuse them to waste more money.

 

[Lazy_Tiger]

Don't listen to a lot of ******** here.

Straight facts you must know.

DB also have to flush after idling, before your first come and after you last cup.
The flushing part is super cool and the impressive part, give you smoke effect. Your spouse sure find you more man.

Essentially, if they are of the same class, say HX on common E61 grouphead, they work essentially the same.
So just get the most affordable option will do, unless your carrot head needs a trim.

Tsk tsk tsk. Relax mat don't get a heart attack from coffee discussion......lets be clear on some pts

Wah you really hard sell.

As i said, a hx machine will automatically run within a range of optimal temperature, so please don't over exaggerate that it will "overheat", as well say the machine melt.

1) A Cooling flush is necessary for HX if idle for a long time. If a HX does not need a cooling flush after a long idle period then something is wrong with the HX design. The cooling flush is to flush out the superheated water that is the same temp as the boiler (Above boiling temp) out of the hx so that this boiling water does not touch your coffee. If a HX does not need to flush after a long idling period then the brew path must be doing the cooling for this hot water which makes the machine poorly designed because the water in the correct temp that comes after the superheated water will be too cold to brew.

WTF sia, you really don't read and still just want to plain hard sell.
Flip prata liao, throw to me, say i flip.

I said FIRST flush before and after the last cup and channeling points are those ****ing tubes in between that are not in the influence of control from any PID.

The first pull beside remove stale water, help the grouphead heat up faster and helps to clear any residue dried residues of any. The last pull is to clear the remnants and the oil.
This is pretty common sense and don't tell me your machine has any amazing technology to auto clean.

You flush after idling cause the water in between the grouphead and your boiler needs are idling are settling away from the set temp.

If you are not a temperature geek, you don't even need to do anything nor flush anything.
If you are making just one cup in a day, **** flushing.
All the decent HX or DB machines will still set the machine to a set optimal temperature.

So please do not keep creating all the mysterious points to new users, confuse them to waste more money.

2) The points I made are not mysterious or snake oil but it is confusing because you need to understand how the machine is engineered which is not easy if u surf EDMW the whole day instead of read up or talking to vendors. Flushing your group head after brewing is a hygenic necessity and I don't dispute that. I also don't dispute that flushing your machine during the initial start up helps to heat the group and portafilter. What I do dispute is flushing the grouphead to clear the so called cold stale water inside the "channeling points" just before brewing for DB machines or after a long idle period. u said this ("DB also have to flush after idling, before your first come and after you last cup"). Ever taken apart a e61 grouphead and seen inside or got your vendor to explain to you how it works? The so called stale water is barely a few drops because your brew valve closes after brewing and your drain valve opens to drain out any water still inside the brew path. The rest of the water will be cycled back to the boiler by the thermosiphon. This is why eric's thermometer is only displays useful info when u are actually running water through the brew group and not when the machine is not brewing because...there is no water inside the brewing path! You could argue that flushing before just brewing is to heat up the group head to ideal temp but this simply does not make sense in a pid controlled double boiler with an properly set off-set temp that ensures that water hitting the puck is as close as possible to temp displayed on the pid display (Within a consistent environment of course, no fans etc). Heating up the group head to a consistent temp should be a function of the thermosiphon during the idle phase! If you need to flush to head up the group head to ensure correct brew temp for a pid controlled DB because of the long idle period then the machine thermosyphon and pid parameters is poorly designed. Heating up the grouphead by needing to flush water through it is adds variability to your routine and makes the pid feature useless.


I'm not sure about other brands but I know VBM did extensive testing and tuning with their DB machine and a SCACE to get consistent temp pulled no matter how long the idle time is and intershot consistency within certain reasonable time intervals (WBC standard). They published their results.

BTW to that guy looking for a machine.

I find those control knobs for the steam/water wands, in joystick form pushing up or down.
Is better to use than those need to turn to on.

Mine is the stupid turn the tap

BTW, i'm using Alex Duetto, a ** db.

Like I said I'm not hardselling here...just helping to inform some buyers on the pros and cons. Like I said Silvia also can make good espresso but not all machines are the same. Money is always an issue so buyers have to aware if they are willing to part their extra money to get a certain feature that assist them in their brewing or maintenance. Not all machines are the same. U got a Izzo Alex Duetto, I got a VBM DD and silvia, blink vbm Jr HX, king got a pavoni, Intel got a brewtus, Razor got a pid silvia. All of us had our considerations when making the purchase and its not always for the cheapest machine but what fit our needs and within our budget.

Joystick valves usually comes with more expensive machines simply because they are more expensive parts. Should have bought a GS3 instead huh?

 

[Lazy_Tiger]

We are no experts, just sharing from experience.

Take for example the manual lever like the Olympia Cremina. Olympia Cremina uses a dipper design. Dipper designs sit too cool at idle yet run hotter if you draw enough water through the group to exhaust the thermal capacity of the group. The extent to which the dipper design is successful in delivering water at the correct temperature to the ground coffee depends on the ability of the group to bring the water as it exits the boiler at well over 100C down to say 92-94C by the time it makes contact with the coffee. The group head of the Cremina is made of chrome plated brass which is capable of dissipating heat to its optimal temperature before the water hits the coffee grounds. However, if extraction is made consecutively, say 6 shots in a row, there will not be enough time for the group head to cool down which will ultimately results in burnt coffee. That is to say, after the 6th shot, the group must be allowed time to idle and cooled before the next extraction. This is why Cremina is meant for domestic use because of the mass of its group head. It is not meant to entertain large groups and pulled shot after shot. So no, it will not burn the coffee if it is used correctly.

I prefer clarity when referring to shots pulled using lever machines. The adjectives bear no meaning until you have tried it yourself. Only then, you can tell the differences from those by the pump driven ones.

Interesting..thanks for the info. I suppose with a consistent and verified routine, lever machines are not that difficult to use after all.

I have tried espresso from an idrocompresso but not often enough to be able to distinguish a difference.

 

[derazor]

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?...90527596.73104.138860969509613&type=1&theater

Can hoot Liberty Coffee liao!

 

[tHeGeNeZ]

Just went to Pacamara Coffee Roasters near Phrom Pong BTS, tried their premium blend (foreign beans) espresso shot and the normal Thai blend espresso con panna.

Their premium espresso blend was really good, strong flavor full bodied but not too intense.

Their Thai espresso blend/SO was really strong! Very chiang. Took a sip without the whipped cream and I immediately sneezed lol

Bought a bag of Brazil Fauzenda Alice estate for 375B ( around 14.7 SGD), two bottles of Monin syrup at 315B each ( around 12.3SGD each)

Their slayer machine is real beauty, beautifully crafted wooden handles and their graphic designs on the exterior.

I am currently sitting in Roast, tried their Ethiopia SO French press. First time trying a French press and I'm so intrigued by the different profile of flavors compared to the espressos I have been drinking all these while. It is really light, looks diluted but the fruity aroma was great.

 

[Coffee in a place]

Just went to Pacamara Coffee Roasters near Phrom Pong BTS, tried their premium blend (foreign beans) espresso shot and the normal Thai blend espresso con panna.

Their premium espresso blend was really good, strong flavor full bodied but not too intense.

Their Thai espresso blend/SO was really strong! Very chiang. Took a sip without the whipped cream and I immediately sneezed lol

Bought a bag of Brazil Fauzenda Alice estate for 375B ( around 14.7 SGD), two bottles of Monin syrup at 315B each ( around 12.3SGD each)

Their slayer machine is real beauty, beautifully crafted wooden handles and their graphic designs on the exterior.

I am currently sitting in Roast, tried their Ethiopia SO French press. First time trying a French press and I'm so intrigued by the different profile of flavors compared to the espressos I have been drinking all these while. It is really light, looks diluted but the fruity aroma was great.

It's good to try roasts from different regions. Roasting techniques varies with culture. Thai roasters focus more on the sweetness of the beans. Pacamara serve very good coffee.

 

[IntelFlash]

Went to the fha for free. Borrowed a pass from my friend in hotel line. Anyway there isn't alot of smaller machines. Mostly available for those big machines used in full cafes.

Tasted lm, slayer, Expobar, cimbali, etc.
My friend and I don't have the expensive tongue to taste a big notch of difference.

Though I have a double boiler, I also think hx is more than enough and not necessary to spend too much for those white elephant features with only slight advantages.
Starbucks is using nuova simonelli machines and every one is still thinking they are making crap.

Most users here are new and they are normal Sinkies who are not demanding in coffee. Edmwers are smart buyers.
We only want cheap and good.
+-1 degree won't make a drink undrinkable or alot difference to most users here to justify few hundred bucks more. Even I who been drinking for years also don't think there's a big deal.

And those machines that are loaded pack with more features proportionally will have more parts and have more chance of having components faulty.

Even if you want to buy an expensive machine, also don't know your tongue can practically test it. Or maybe you can only imagine there is improvement.

Happy I spent just $2k+ for a double boiler while others spent much more on invisible advantages. Those buyers who spent $1k plus for a hx are not dumb, they are way smarter.

 

[Lazy_Tiger]

Just went to Pacamara Coffee Roasters near Phrom Pong BTS, tried their premium blend (foreign beans) espresso shot and the normal Thai blend espresso con panna.

Their premium espresso blend was really good, strong flavor full bodied but not too intense.

Their Thai espresso blend/SO was really strong! Very chiang. Took a sip without the whipped cream and I immediately sneezed lol

Bought a bag of Brazil Fauzenda Alice estate for 375B ( around 14.7 SGD), two bottles of Monin syrup at 315B each ( around 12.3SGD each)

Their slayer machine is real beauty, beautifully crafted wooden handles and their graphic designs on the exterior.

I am currently sitting in Roast, tried their Ethiopia SO French press. First time trying a French press and I'm so intrigued by the different profile of flavors compared to the espressos I have been drinking all these while. It is really light, looks diluted but the fruity aroma was great.

Thanks for the sharing! I'm looking forward to my roadster blend from OZ speciality coffee who get their stuff from pacamara. French press was my 1st brewing method. It makes a good strong drink. Only issue is the sediment that settle at the bottom of the cup. Honestly while espresso makes for a strong drink with an intense fragance I find it easier to appreciate subtle nuances in the bean when drinking brewed coffee esp from a method that uses longer brewing times like french press.

anyway the square mile sweetshop and red brick has arrived! Not bad, 8 days post roast this time compared to 11 days last time. Tried out sweet shop and its a very fruity espresso. mouth feel seems light but maybe my pour is too fast. i'll try with a higher temp and finer grind tomorrow.

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Made a cup of Panama La Esmeralda estate Geisha coffee using v60. another fine coffee. Very mild and clean taste but the fragrance is incredible. I would not say the fragrance is powerful but it definately makes its presence felt simply because of the strong floral aroma. If you like your coffee with sweet delicate florals go for this one.

 

[swirlsurfer13]

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?...90527596.73104.138860969509613&type=1&theater

Can hoot Liberty Coffee liao!

Anyone wants to share the mailing costs - $6 for 3 bags? I only want to get 1 bag. I can meet up at Raffles Place during lunch.

 

[DriftKing]

Tsk tsk tsk. Relax mat don't get a heart attack from coffee discussion......lets be clear on some pts

Joystick valves usually comes with more expensive machines simply because they are more expensive parts. Should have bought a GS3 instead huh?

Haha, all should have a coffee and chillax, not here to make crazy arguments here.

Yea its really come down to fussy and G.A.S. Its like I really want the Kees Van Der Westen Speedster, the LM GS3 etc, seriously they are overkills but heck they look amazing and definitely feel proud owning them. Slayer are so pretty as well!

But man, GS3 for 9k is seriously overpriced, I guess a commercial 2 group head synesso would cost similarly... how much is R58 going for anyway? almost similar boiler sizes but E61 instead of saturated brewhead and flaps. Oh and where did you get your alex duetto and price? I think Alex Duetto is almost the most reasonably sized and priced home machine anyone can afford to own. I've encounter so many bad barista with good commercial machines at cafes which makes me want to own my machine and make coffee 10x better tasting.

 

[flameignite]

Haha, all should have a coffee and chillax, not here to make crazy arguments here.

Yea its really come down to fussy and G.A.S. Its like I really want the Kees Van Der Westen Speedster, the LM GS3 etc, seriously they are overkills but heck they look amazing and definitely feel proud owning them. Slayer are so pretty as well!

But man, GS3 for 9k is seriously overpriced, I guess a commercial 2 group head synesso would cost similarly... how much is R58 going for anyway? almost similar boiler sizes but E61 instead of saturated brewhead and flaps. Oh and where did you get your alex duetto and price? I think Alex Duetto is almost the most reasonably sized and priced home machine anyone can afford to own. I've encounter so many bad barista with good commercial machines at cafes which makes me want to own my machine and make coffee 10x better tasting.

Just my 1 cent worth
I briefly browse through the comments and it seems that a few are trying to point out that owning a $3000 machine is no different from a $9000. True in a to a certain sense if u are making less than 20/30 cups a day. If it's purely for home use, it can be more forgiving because u are not trying to be a speedy mice here.

But I may just add that some of the price differences are reflected in branding/ materials/distro or manufacturer trying to milk us, It's fine that you may be willing to pay a bit more to drink from stainless steel boiler, but do think about the connecting joints and tubings could well be higher brass grade materials, hopefully no corners cut.

Lastly temperature(as some pointed out long or short flushes)/ pressure /flow profiling could be different between makes and possibly marginally different between the same brand type and this at the end of the day is what will be affecting your cuppa and could be what you are most willing to pay for a great cup of coffee. Which probably explains why lever machine are still around as well.