Some random facts about 三国

OngHuatHuat

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and the historical truth ish, shu was destroyed within 3mths when wei muscled up enuff troops. shu ish difficultto attack but not impossible to attack. if u let wei amassed enuff manpower then shu ish finished, just like i mentioned in previous post.

the weak point of shu was not the northern campaign during ZGL time, but during jiangwei's time from AD 240s onwards, becos he cant go back to the capital fearing political sabotage, he was stuck at the borders and had to frantically attempt to expand his foothold.


I believe Shu started to get weak after zhugeliang launched his 北伐大业,the best chance was the first one, coz they are caught by surprise. After that better consolidate and grow first. It was his wrong strategy that led his direct successor into a complete wrong direction. This eventually translated to a total surrender of 蜀.

魏延and 李严,both are capable and strong generals, not favored by zhugeliang.
 

ponpokku

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Ern.... I think you really need to see the route they took to attack north. They are not using the waterway.

If wanna come out from 四川,without using waterway, they need to come out from 汉中。And there is this 虎牢关that they need to conquer before they can go into 中原via that route. Before they even reach 长安,they need to face魏at 平原,this is where they lose their soldier competitive advantage.

If I din remember wrongly, zhugeliang used the land route every time. So what you said about what 千里江陵blah blah quite surprised me. Unless you are saying they take route from 吴.

it depends on which northern campaign.

the first was 2 prong attack. 219AD liubei attacked hanzhong and won. guanyu attacking jingzhou and won. but guanyu attacked and steal food supplies from wu becos he cant support his bloated troops after the wei troops surrendered and went under his command. subsequently he lost to wu later and got killed.

the second stage was led by ZGL. he organised 5 campaigns.

the third stage was the series of campaigns led by jiangwei from 238AD onwards. 11 campaigns, and it drained shu of manpower and reasources cos mostly not well planned.
 

OngHuatHuat

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When liu bei invade Wu, zhuge liang was already condemned in his career. That is why he did not tag along with the Wu expedition.

If you got read carefully, liubei know clearly zhu ge liang strength is in managing the country but not in military. When he first 入川,he brought 庞统and 法正,but not 诸葛亮。only after 庞统is dead, then he asked zhugeliang to tag along.
 

ponpokku

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I believe Shu started to get weak after zhugeliang launched his 北伐大业,the best chance was the first one, coz they are caught by surprise. After that better consolidate and grow first. It was his wrong strategy that led his direct successor into a complete wrong direction. This eventually translated to a total surrender of 蜀.

魏延and 李严,both are capable and strong generals, not favored by zhugeliang.

the northern campaign was first by liubei in 219AD, after he titled himself king of hanzhong. he started the first northern campaign, conquered hanzhong himself while guanyu conquered fancheng.
 

ponpokku

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When liu bei invade Wu, zhuge liang was already condemned in his career. That is why he did not tag along with the Wu expedition.

ZGL always stick to alliance with wu against wei, so he lost favor in this campaign.

liubei had to attack someone as wayang after the death of guanyu. attack wei at that time is risky cos not long ago he declared that emperor xiandi was dead and therefore he ascend the throne to be emperor. attacking wei northwards would have a high chance of debunking the death of xiandi and made his ascension to the throne illegit.

so he pick wu, even thou it was guanyu who provoked wu and courted his own death in the first place.
 

OngHuatHuat

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it depends on which northern campaign.

the first was 2 prong attack. 219AD liubei attacked hanzhong and won. guanyu attacking jingzhou and won. but guanyu attacked and steal food supplies from wu becos he cant support his bloated troops after the wei troops surrendered and went under his command. subsequently he lost to wu later and got killed.

the second stage was led by ZGL. he organised 5 campaigns.

the third stage was the series of campaigns led by jiangwei from 238AD onwards. 11 campaigns, and it drained shu of manpower and reasources cos mostly not well planned.

When I talked about 诸葛亮北伐,it means zhu ge liang is the general, not 刘备or 关羽.
The strategy can only work if they attack from 荆州and益州together.
Attacked from 益州alone is darn difficult. Not to mention 司马懿is equally good and leading a bigger army.

Zhu ge liang 六出祁山。
The first time was the one has the highest chance to success but they blew it up.
Only if they manage to capture 长安and虎牢关,and hold there, then only they have a chance to go inside 中原。
But 虎牢关is darn hard to conquer. They cannot afford to bypass it, coz once they bypassed it, they will be chopped half by 魏。so many times 北伐,zhugeliang is no where near 长安or 虎牢关,司马懿was just sitting there, relax and waited for 诸葛亮to finish food supplyIt is saddening for all 诸葛亮fans, but this is the truth.

荆州side, 襄阳is a stronghold, don think anybody manage to take it from 魏after they got it from 刘表。you do know that 襄阳is the city that hold Mongolian army for decades during 宋朝right?
 

stupid_donkey

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ZGL always stick to alliance with wu against wei, so he lost favor in this campaign.

liubei had to attack someone as wayang after the death of guanyu. attack wei at that time is risky cos not long ago he declared that emperor xiandi was dead and therefore he ascend the throne to be emperor. attacking wei northwards would have a high chance of debunking the death of xiandi and made his ascension to the throne illegit.

so he pick wu, even thou it was guanyu who provoked wu and courted his own death in the first place.

Chiu watch too much ROTK drama liao! ZGL was the cause of guanyu death...
"漢中之戰時,諸葛亮在成都替前線屢敗屢戰的劉備提供資援。關羽敗走麥城後,為了劉禪的地位,擔心以剛毅勇猛著稱的劉封,在劉備薨逝之後後主劉禪會很難駕馭制禦,獻計劉備以不發兵援救關羽為由殺害劉封。"
 

OngHuatHuat

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and the historical truth ish, shu was destroyed within 3mths when wei muscled up enuff troops. shu ish difficultto attack but not impossible to attack. if u let wei amassed enuff manpower then shu ish finished, just like i mentioned in previous post.

the weak point of shu was not the northern campaign during ZGL time, but during jiangwei's time from AD 240s onwards, becos he cant go back to the capital fearing political sabotage, he was stuck at the borders and had to frantically attempt to expand his foothold.

They manage to come in coz nobody was there to defend that 阴平小径。During zhugeliang time, there was always someone there to defend it.
 

sleepyhealer

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When liu bei invade Wu, zhuge liang was already condemned in his career. That is why he did not tag along with the Wu expedition.
It was said because of his objective that's why ZGL was left behind but there were possibilities that he was left behind to provide backup, logistic and to attend to the country matters

Sent from Kanto using GAGT
 

sleepyhealer

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Chiu watch too much ROTK drama liao! ZGL was the cause of guanyu death...
"漢中之戰時,諸葛亮在成都替前線屢敗屢戰的劉備提供資援。關羽敗走麥城後,為了劉禪的地位,擔心以剛毅勇猛著稱的劉封,在劉備薨逝之後後主劉禪會很難駕馭制禦,獻計劉備以不發兵援救關羽為由殺害劉封。"
Where you get this from. Even if he doesn't want Liu Feng to succeed. He will not condemn Shu by not providing reinforcement to Guan Yu. Losing Jingzhou spell really the end of the possibility of Shu uniting the land by first defeating Wei

Sent from Kanto using GAGT
 

stupid_donkey

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Where you get this from. Even if he doesn't want Liu Feng to succeed. He will not condemn Shu by not providing reinforcement to Guan Yu. Losing Jingzhou spell really the end of the possibility of Shu uniting the land by first defeating Wei

Sent from Kanto using GAGT

ZGL and guanyu buay gam in history there is word call "诸葛亮借刀杀关羽"
U really think shu is so holy like the ROTK CSB noval?
 
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ponpokku

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Chiu watch too much ROTK drama liao! ZGL was the cause of guanyu death...
"漢中之戰時,諸葛亮在成都替前線屢敗屢戰的劉備提供資援。關羽敗走麥城後,為了劉禪的地位,擔心以剛毅勇猛著稱的劉封,在劉備薨逝之後後主劉禪會很難駕馭制禦,獻計劉備以不發兵援救關羽為由殺害劉封。"

mai gong ranjiao weh. which part i said was in ROTK lol.

and the part u posted ish total BS. liubei sacrificed guanyu to kill liu feng? lol.
 

Xyresic

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moi fav was Lu Su and Zhou Yu tag team

they ish complement each other well
 

stupid_donkey

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mai gong ranjiao weh. which part i said was in ROTK lol.

and the part u posted ish total BS. liubei sacrificed guanyu to kill liu feng? lol.

u kaki gong jiaowei first still say me?!
So u mean liu bei wayang attack wu and cause the down fall of shu? and when did i say liu bei sacrificed guanyu??? :eek:
 

ponpokku

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ZGL and guanyu buay gam in history there is word call "诸葛亮借刀杀关羽"
U really think shu is so holy like the ROTK CSB noval?

mai tok cok lah, 诸葛亮借刀杀关羽 ish just one opinion that started ard qing dynasty. thats 1700yrs after 3 kingdoms.

the fact ish, guanyu ish buay gam with most officials. so ZGL cannot be the only one to be blamed for his death, if u wanna push it this direction.

why liubei never give guanyu posthemous titles after guanyu was killed? u might as well say that from liubei to every official everyone ish buay song about guanyu and wanted him dead.
 
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ponpokku

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u kaki gong jiaowei first still say me?!
So u mean liu bei wayang attack wu and cause the down fall of shu? and when did i say liu bei sacrificed guanyu??? :eek:

the historical truth is liubei chose to attack wu and caused the downfall of shu. many tried to stop him but was in vain. some were even thrown into prison. did ppl tried to push him to attach wu?

u tell me lor.

獻計劉備以不發兵援救關羽為由殺害劉封

ZGL suggest to liubei not to rescue guanyu in order to kill liufeng. ur quote already said they are collaborating against guanyu. lol.

the 2 of them need to make such a big detour to kill liufeng? siao boh? :s13:
 
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stupid_donkey

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the truth is liubei chose to attack wu and caused the downfall of shu. many tried to stop him but was in vain. some were even thrown into prison.

u tell me lor.

獻計劉備以不發兵援救關羽為由殺害劉封

ZGL suggest to liubei not to rescue guanyu in order to kill liufeng. ur quote already said they are collaborating against guanyu. lol.

the 2 of them need to make such a big detour to kill liufeng? siao boh? :s13:

He borrow sword legally kill guanyu and liu feng so nobody will buay song him ma... Think abt it why liu bei nvr "追諡" guanyu after he uplorry? even fa zheng uplorry can be 追諡 only guanyu have to wait untill liu chan give face 追諡 him...? :s13:
 
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