WIFI Mesh VS AP

[ss2000]

As mentioned, your original plan will work. My only suggestion is to use a better main router, or cheaper nodes like RT-AX55. And I believe two mesh nodes will do, no need three nodes. In fact too many nodes will make roaming a bit worse.

TUF-AX6000 + 2 nodes of Zenwifi XD6 --higher cost option
TUF-AX4200 + 2 nodes of Zenwifi XD5-- lower cost option
TUF-AX4200 + 2 nodes of RT-AX3000P -- low cost option
TUF-AX4200 + 2 nodes of RT-AX55 -- low cost option

I am not good at finding good lobangs so the price below is for your reference.
TUF-AX4200 price is at about S$249 from Challenger.
TUF-AX6000 price is at about S$359 from Challenger.
ZenWiFi XD6 two-pack is at about S$499 from Challenger.
ZenWiFi XD5 two-pack is at about S$349 from Challenger.
RT-AX55 is about S$70 BNIB from Carousell (counterpart of XD4), dumped by M1 users.
RT-AX3000P is about S$80 BNIB from Carousell (counterpart of XD5), dumped by M1 users.

As for AImesh wireless settings, I will say just leave them with default settings initially (including using Smart Connect). Once you have a stable setup, then you can play with the settings.

I tend to think, most likely you would not really get better bandwidth or better roaming compared to the default settings. But it might be fun to play with the settings in Asus routers and tey to understand their meanings.

I do not play with Asus much as I am playing with more advanced things like pfSense/OPNsense/OpenWRT, but not on the wireless side (pfSense/OPNsernse are not good at wireless anyway). I am not using AImesh myself.

I have two home networks.
1) I am using RT-AX86U as the main router for one home network. I played a bit with the wireless settings but not much (using CH60 and 160MHz channel bandwidth for the 5GHz band, disable 2.4GHz band).

2) I am using an older RT-AX82U as a dumb AP for the other home network, with virtualized pfSense/OPNsense/OpenWRT (on an Intel Celeron J4105 mini PC) as the main router OS. I am using basically the default settings for the RT-AX82U AP, Smart Connect ON, CH149 and 80MHz channel bandwidth for the 5GHz band; auto settings and 20MHz channnel bandwidth for the 2.4GHz band.

What do you think about ASUs RT-AX89X? I’ve read Dong’s review. I’m thinking to start with one first in the living room and see how the RSSI is like in the MBR. If not good enough then I add one more AX89X. I have budget for it.

My Linksys AC2600 is registering these RSSI:
1) When I’m in the living room: 2.4Ghz is -47 dBm and 5GHz is -42 dBm
2) When I’m in the MBR: 2.4Ghz is -76 dBm and 5GHz is -83 dBm.

It’s clear the AC router signal can’t penetrate the walls and doors well. But yet my iPhone will continue to cling on to the Linksys router, even when I stand next to the Nokia Beacon in the MBR.

The Nokia Beacon in the MBR reads: 2.4Ghz -23 dBm but I’m standing just next to it.

I’m hoping that the RX-AX89X can penetrate to the MBR with good RSSI then I don’t need any mesh. I know I need to install it and try. No other way.

But what’s your take on this router? I know it uses the Qualcomm processor instead of Broadcom. It’s 64-bit and running at 2.2 GHz quad-core. Dong rated it 9/10 as a mesh router. What’s your take?

 

[xiaofan]

What do you think about ASUs RT-AX89X? I’ve read Dong’s review. I’m thinking to start with one first in the living room and see how the RSSI is like in the MBR. If not good enough then I add one more AX89X. I have budget for it.

My Linksys AC2600 is registering these RSSI:
1) When I’m in the living room: 2.4Ghz is -47 dBm and 5GHz is -42 dBm
2) When I’m in the MBR: 2.4Ghz is -76 dBm and 5GHz is -83 dBm.

It’s clear the AC router signal can’t penetrate the walls and doors well. But yet my iPhone will continue to cling on to the Linksys router, even when I stand next to the Nokia Beacon in the MBR.

The Nokia Beacon in the MBR reads: 2.4Ghz -23 dBm but I’m standing just next to it.

I’m hoping that the RX-AX89X can penetrate to the MBR with good RSSI then I don’t need any mesh. I know I need to install it and try. No other way.

But what’s your take on this router? I know it uses the Qualcomm processor instead of Broadcom. It’s 64-bit and running at 2.2 GHz quad-core. Dong rated it 9/10 as a mesh router. What’s your take?

If you have budget to go with RT-AX89X, just go for it. It is one of the top of the line AX router from Asus.

In case it is not good enough, you can use lower end unit as the mesh node. For mesh node, the CPU is totally wasted, so no point to use RT-AX89X. RT-AX86S, TUF-AX6000 or RT-AX82U will be a very good mesh node already.

 

[ss2000]

If you have budget to go with RT-AX89X, just go for it. It is one of the top of the line AX router from Asus.

In case it is not good enough, you can use lower end unit as the mesh node. For mesh node, the CPU is totally wasted, so no point to use RT-AX89X. RT-AX86S, TUF-AX6000 or RT-AX82U will be a very good mesh node already.

Thanks for your input. I read on Newegg that the AX89X has a lot of complaints about it rebooting a few times a day and the connection dropping. Quite a number of such feedback in 2022. That makes me hesitate a bit. Maybe it’s better now with the latest firmware. I’ll go read more.

 

[xiaofan]

Thanks for your input. I read on Newegg that the AX89X has a lot of complaints about it rebooting a few times a day and the connection dropping. Quite a number of such feedback in 2022. That makes me hesitate a bit. Maybe it’s better now with the latest firmware. I’ll go read more.

Another cheaper option is GT-AX6000 (about S$450 to 480 BNIB from Carousell, dumped by M1 users). It is one of the best rated AX routers in the market.
https://dongknows.com/asus-rog-rapture-gt-ax6000-gaming-router-review/

If you have no intention to go with 10Gbps plan in the near future, I will recommend GT-AX6000 over RT-AX89X.

The good thing is that it is supported by the alternative Merlin FW.
https://www.asuswrt-merlin.net/

 

[ss2000]

Another cheaper option is GT-AX6000 (about S$450 to 480 BNIB from Carousell, dumped by M1 users). It is one of the best rated AX routers in the market.
https://dongknows.com/asus-rog-rapture-gt-ax6000-gaming-router-review/

If you have no intention to go with 10Gbps plan in the near future, I will recommend GT-AX6000 over RT-AX89X.

The good thing is that it is supported by the alternative Merlin FW.
https://www.asuswrt-merlin.net/

Isn’t the GT-AX6000 the same as the TUF-AX6000? I did the comparison and they are almost the same. Those differences in terms of functions probably don’t matter to me.

The TUF-AX6000 is going for $339. On Carousell it can go for $260 but the packaging looks like it’s from China, all in Chinese. Don’t know whether legit or not.

oh by the way I found a seller willing to let go BNIB AX89X for $480. That’s a real bargain. I’m tempted but also worried about the reboot. Sigh.

 

[xiaofan]

Isn’t the GT-AX6000 the same as the TUF-AX6000? I did the comparison and they are almost the same. Those differences in terms of functions probably don’t matter to me.

The TUF-AX6000 is going for $339. On Carousell it can go for $260 but the packaging looks like it’s from China, all in Chinese. Don’t know whether legit or not.

No. GT-AX6000 uses Broadcom BCM4912 chipset (same as GT-AX11000 Pro, RT-AX88U Pro and RT-AX86U Pro) and it has 1GB RAM and it belongs to high end routers from Asus. TUF-AX6000 uses MediaTek Filogic 830 chipset and has 512MB RAM, it belongs to the mid-range routers from Asus. I will call TUF-AX6000 poor man's GT-AX6000. There are some nice features for GT-AX6000 which you may find it useful in the future, like VLAN support and Guest Network Pro.

Since you mentioned RT-AX89X, that is why I mentioned GT-AX6000 as an alternative.

TUF-AX6000 is a fine choice. The China model is called 天选TX-AX6000, which is a superb buy at RMB799 from Taobao, if you do not care abou local warantty.

You can refer to the thread here about Asus China routers.
https://forums.hardwarezone.com.sg/threads/asus-router-from-taobao.6407610/page-3

Advance features of high end Asus routers using BCM4912 CPU.
1) VLAN -- GT-AX11000 Pro, GT-AX6000, ROG Rapture GT-AXE16000, RT-AX86U Pro, RT-AX88U Pro, ZenWiFi Pro ET12, ZenWIFI Pro XT12
https://www.asus.com/support/FAQ/1049415/
2) Guest Network Pro -- GT-AX11000 Pro, GT-AX6000, ROG Rapture GT-AXE16000, RT-AX86U Pro, RT-AX88U Pro, ZenWiFi Pro ET12, ZenWIFI Pro XT12
https://www.asus.com/support/FAQ/1049414/

 

[ss2000]

“TUF-AX6000 is a fine choice. The China model is called 天选TX-AX6000, which is a superb buy at RMB799 from Taobao, if you do not care abou local warantty.”

Yes that’s right. The model the guy gave was TX-AX6000. Let me check with the guy on warranty. It’s a steal for $260.

Yes I noted that the RAM for AX89X is 1GB which is attractive. Thanks.

 

[ss2000]

Finally bought the RT-AX89X router. Hopefully the installation is smooth.

If you have budget to go with RT-AX89X, just go for it. It is one of the top of the line AX router from Asus.

In case it is not good enough, you can use lower end unit as the mesh node. For mesh node, the CPU is totally wasted, so no point to use RT-AX89X. RT-AX86S, TUF-AX6000 or RT-AX82U will be a very good mesh node already.

”For mesh node, the CPU is totally wasted, so no point to use RT-AX89X. RT-AX86S, TUF-AX6000 or RT-AX82U will be a very good mesh node already.”

I understand the bit about wasted CPU power for mesh nodes. The CPU and RAM does not matter much for nodes because the node is not performing any router functions per se. I read that on the internet as well.

But I’m wondering about MIMO. Is it useful to get 4x4 MIMO nodes or stick with 2x2 which is cheaper.

Here’s my understanding.

I read that a 4x4 MU-MIMO allows two 2x2 MIMO wireless devices (or 4 1x1 MIMO devices) like my iPhone and iPad to simultaneously transmit data, not just get connected. Dong says that a 4x4 Wi-Fi router can handle two 2x2 clients at full speeds.

Let's take a 4x4 AX router that has a maximum speed of 2400 Mbps (5 GHz) as an example (i.e. 600 Mbps per stream, 80 MHz, 1024-QAM). This means that one 2x2 wireless client will get 1200 Mbps, and a second 2x2 wireless client will get the other 1200 Mbps.

And both are simultaneously transmitting data over the same channel on the 5 GHz?

I do understand that we won’t get 1200 Mbps after accounting for a lower QAM and MAC overheads.

What I want to verify is that it is still worth getting a 4x4 MIMO router as node so as to get maximum throughput for more devices to concurrently transmit data.

Then I’ll settle for Asus mesh nodes with a 32bit processor (cheaper) instead of going for 64bit processor, but with 4x4 MIMO.

 

[xiaofan]

Finally bought the RT-AX89X router. Hopefully the installation is smooth.



”For mesh node, the CPU is totally wasted, so no point to use RT-AX89X. RT-AX86S, TUF-AX6000 or RT-AX82U will be a very good mesh node already.”

I understand the bit about wasted CPU power for mesh nodes. The CPU and RAM does not matter much for nodes because the node is not performing any router functions per se. I read that on the internet as well.

But I’m wondering about MIMO. Is it useful to get 4x4 MIMO nodes or stick with 2x2 which is cheaper.

Here’s my understanding.

I read that a 4x4 MU-MIMO allows two 2x2 MIMO wireless devices (or 4 1x1 MIMO devices) like my iPhone and iPad to simultaneously transmit data, not just get connected. Dong says that a 4x4 Wi-Fi router can handle two 2x2 clients at full speeds.

Let's take a 4x4 AX router that has a maximum speed of 2400 Mbps (5 GHz) as an example (i.e. 600 Mbps per stream, 80 MHz, 1024-QAM). This means that one 2x2 wireless client will get 1200 Mbps, and a second 2x2 wireless client will get the other 1200 Mbps.

And both are simultaneously transmitting data over the same channel on the 5 GHz?

I do understand that we won’t get 1200 Mbps after accounting for a lower QAM and MAC overheads.

What I want to verify is that it is still worth getting a 4x4 MIMO router as node so as to get maximum throughput for more devices to concurrently transmit data.

Then I’ll settle for Asus mesh nodes with a 32bit processor (cheaper) instead of going for 64bit processor, but with 4x4 MIMO.

Personally I think it is worth getting 4x4 routers as it is a better match for your RT-AX89X.

But before buying any nodes, it is better to check whether single RT-AX89X is already good enough for your flat. Then you can decide which node to go with. I actually think single RT-AX89X may already be good enough, depending on your expectations.

For example, if the wireless performance in the master room is still not satisfactory, but the clients used in master room is not that criitcal, then a cheap RT-AX55 or RT-AX3000P (below S$100) in the master room is a good option to go.

 

[ss2000]

Personally I think it is worth getting 4x4 routers as it is a better match for your RT-AX89X.

But before buying any nodes, it is better to check whether single RT-AX89X is already good enough for your flat. Then you can decide which node to go with. I actually think single RT-AX89X may already be good enough, depending on your expectations.

For example, if the wireless performance in the master room is still not satisfactory, but the clients used in master room is not that criitcal, then a cheap RT-AX55 or RT-AX3000P (below S$100) in the master room is a good option to go.

Yes I intend to test out the 89X signal strength first in the bedrooms with doors closed. If it’s ok then I’ll not add nodes.

I was thinking of the cheap RX55 but I do work from the MBR sometimes (eg private conference call) so I want a good connection there. The RX55 is 2x2 that’s why I’m wondering if my understanding of how MU-MIMO works is correct.

On the internet, people explain MU-MIMO as expanding bandwidth by allowing many concurrent streams of data from a single client but I haven’t found anything definitive about concurrent streams from more than one client. And the max is limited by the 2x2 client devices. So a 4x4 router can only use 2 streams for a 2x2 client. Then it makes me wonder if another 2x2 client could use the other two streams simultaneously.

If it can’t then pointless to get 4x4 router since only one client can have an active connection. I have Starhub TV in the MBR so if it is turned on, it is already using one or two streams from the router. And if other clients cannot use the remaining streams then what’s the point of a 4x4 router.

 

[chiu2000]

Yes I intend to test out the 89X signal strength first in the bedrooms with doors closed. If it’s ok then I’ll not add nodes.

I was thinking of the cheap RX55 but I do work from the MBR sometimes (eg private conference call) so I want a good connection there. The RX55 is 2x2 that’s why I’m wondering if my understanding of how MU-MIMO works is correct.

On the internet, people explain MU-MIMO as expanding bandwidth by allowing many concurrent streams of data from a single client but I haven’t found anything definitive about concurrent streams from more than one client. And the max is limited by the 2x2 client devices. So a 4x4 router can only use 2 streams for a 2x2 client. Then it makes me wonder if another 2x2 client could use the other two streams simultaneously.

If it can’t then pointless to get 4x4 router since only one client can have an active connection. I have Starhub TV in the MBR so if it is turned on, it is already using one or two streams from the router. And if other clients cannot use the remaining streams then what’s the point of a 4x4 router.

Most clients are only 2x2, so if you are using wired backhaul i would just save some money and stick to dual band 2x2, and try to wire up as many devices as possible.

I got a power/LAN combo adapter for my Chromecast recently. My network is AiMesh with 1 node on wireless backhaul. The Chromecast had been using WiFi before i bought the adapter and honestly the overall streaming experience is roughly the same, but i can tell that the latency improved slightly, which is obvious only when you first start a video and fast forwarding.

So unless you are constantly transferring files over WiFi, or there are more than 30 WiFi clients in the network, the difference between using 2x2 or 4x4 is negligible.

 

[ss2000]

Most clients are only 2x2, so if you are using wired backhaul i would just save some money and stick to dual band 2x2, and try to wire up as many devices as possible.

I got a power/LAN combo adapter for my Chromecast recently. My network is AiMesh with 1 node on wireless backhaul. The Chromecast had been using WiFi before i bought the adapter and honestly the overall streaming experience is roughly the same, but i can tell that the latency improved slightly, which is obvious only when you first start a video and fast forwarding.

So unless you are constantly transferring files over WiFi, or there are more than 30 WiFi clients in the network, the difference between using 2x2 or 4x4 is negligible.

I understand that most clients are 2x2 and in my case, I’m going to wire the node to the main router.

Let’s say me and my wife are now in the MBR. She is watching FB live. I’m watching a YouTube video on my iPhone.

So there are two devices simultaneously streaming. The 2 iPhones are 2x2 devices.

If my mesh node is 2x2, that means that the 2 iPhones each will have only one stream ie 1x1. They have to share the 2x2 streams on the mesh router.

On the other hand, if the mesh node is 4x4, then the 2 iPhones can each use 2 streams and therefore their bandwidth is greater and presumably the streaming experience is better.

Is my understanding correct?

 

[chiu2000]

I understand that most clients are 2x2 and in my case, I’m going to wire the node to the main router.

Let’s say me and my wife are now in the MBR. She is watching FB live. I’m watching a YouTube video on my iPhone.

So there are two devices simultaneously streaming. The 2 iPhones are 2x2 devices.

If my mesh node is 2x2, that means that the 2 iPhones each will have only one stream ie 1x1. They have to share the 2x2 streams on the mesh router.

On the other hand, if the mesh node is 4x4, then the 2 iPhones can each use 2 streams and therefore their bandwidth is greater and presumably the streaming experience is better.

Is my understanding correct?

No, it will still be 2x2. You also need to know how is data being transmitted. Each file is divided into thousands of packets counted in bits and a client will only receive the next packet when the server receives an acknowledgement packet from the client. So between the packets are being sent on 1 client, nothing is being transferred for a few milliseconds. That is when the router can send a different packet to another client.

So that's why unless you have dozens of WiFi clients in the network, or a device is constantly hogging the WiFi, the difference is negligible.

 

[ss2000]

No, it will still be 2x2. You also need to know how is data being transmitted. Each file is divided into thousands of packets counted in bits and a client will only receive the next packet when the server receives an acknowledgement packet from the client. So between the packets are being sent on 1 client, nothing is being transferred for a few milliseconds. That is when the router can send a different packet to another client.

So that's why unless you have dozens of WiFi clients in the network, or a device is constantly hogging the WiFi, the difference is negligible.

Sorry what is still 2x2?

 

[chiu2000]

Sorry what is still 2x2?

Your iPhone in the example you quoted.

They will not "downgrade" to 1x1 when there are other clients transferring at the same time. All clients will just queue up for the few milliseconds to receive their own packets of data.

 

[xiaofan]

I understand that most clients are 2x2 and in my case, I’m going to wire the node to the main router.

Let’s say me and my wife are now in the MBR. She is watching FB live. I’m watching a YouTube video on my iPhone.

So there are two devices simultaneously streaming. The 2 iPhones are 2x2 devices.

If my mesh node is 2x2, that means that the 2 iPhones each will have only one stream ie 1x1. They have to share the 2x2 streams on the mesh router.

On the other hand, if the mesh node is 4x4, then the 2 iPhones can each use 2 streams and therefore their bandwidth is greater and presumably the streaming experience is better.

Is my understanding correct?

WiFi 6 supports OFDMA along with MU-MIMO and both are claimed to be important to improve the efficiency.
https://info.support.huawei.com/network/ptmngsys/Web/ONT_Basics/en/htmlfiles/ofdmavsmimo.html
https://www.networkworld.com/articl...d-why-is-it-essential-for-wi-fi-6-and-6e.html

However, the reality of MU-MIMO (as well as OFDMA) in the real world is very complicated and I do not claim to know the details. The information on the internet can also be very confusing.

Quite some real world tests show that MU-MIMO is of limited usage because of the poor support in the wireless router/AP and the devices side. But with the improvement of the new router (or old router with new FW) and new devices, things may get a bit better now. The following two articles are in Chinese and only for your references.
https://www.acwifi.net/5493.html (WiFi 5)
https://www.acwifi.net/11526.html (WiFi 6)

In any case, if your use case in the master room is just watching streaming videos like FB Live and Youtube (two or 4 devices), then I think you do not even need a node in the master room, or at most you just use the cheap RT-AX55 or RT-AX3000P (around S$70 to S$80 BNIB from Carousell).

 

[xiaofan]

Quite some real world tests show that MU-MIMO is of limited usage because of the poor support in the wireless router/AP and the devices side. But with the improvement of the new router (or old router with new FW) and new devices, things may get a bit better now. The following two articles are in Chinese and only for your references.
https://www.acwifi.net/5493.html (WiFi 5)
https://www.acwifi.net/11526.html (WiFi 6)

The second article is talking about RT-AX86U and it is what I am using now.

Indeed the default Wireless setting is "DL OFDMA Only" and not "DL/UL OFDMA + MU-MIMO". But I have never really seen an issue with 4 devices streaming Youtube, or with one device downloading large file (Linux ISOs) plus three other devices using Youtube.

 

[ss2000]

WiFi 6 supports OFDMA along with MU-MIMO and both are claimed to be important to improve the efficiency.
https://info.support.huawei.com/network/ptmngsys/Web/ONT_Basics/en/htmlfiles/ofdmavsmimo.html
https://www.networkworld.com/articl...d-why-is-it-essential-for-wi-fi-6-and-6e.html

However, the reality of MU-MIMO (as well as OFDMA) in the real world is very complicated and I do not claim to know the details. The information on the internet can also be very confusing.

Quite some real world tests show that MU-MIMO is of limited usage because of the poor support in the wireless router/AP and the devices side. But with the improvement of the new router (or old router with new FW) and new devices, things may get a bit better now. The following two articles are in Chinese and only for your references.
https://www.acwifi.net/5493.html (WiFi 5)
https://www.acwifi.net/11526.html (WiFi 6)

In any case, if your use case in the master room is just watching streaming videos like FB Live and Youtube (two or 4 devices), then I think you do not even need a node in the master room, or at most you just use the cheap RT-AX55 or RT-AX3000P (around S$70 to S$80 BNIB from Carousell).

I will have more than that. I have Starhub TV so likely will have streaming on phone and TV at the same time. I will also work from the room, like video conference calls and so on.

I will test the AX89X first in the MBR for sure. In case the signal is weak because the the concrete walls and the study room wall outside my MBR, I will install a node.

I think from what I read, MU-MIMO can support simultaneous data stream from more than one device.

So a 4x4 router can support one 4x4 client at full speed, or two 2x2 clients at full speed, or four 1x1 clients at full speed. Full speed here means after accounting for MAC overheads.

It also means that a 4x4 router can support two 4x4 clients at half speed.

In this case it is still better to get a 4x4 node instead of a 2x2. When I get the chance, I’ll test the hypothesis with the AX89X.

 

[xiaofan]

All in all you have to test by yourself. I am not an expert in this area and further discussions may confuse you rather than help you.

One lesson I learned (through the past 5 years of getting different routers) is to buy the better router (more expensive) you can afford. For example my Asus RT-AX86U and RT-AX82U perform much better than cheaper routers like Huawei AX3 Quad Core version and 4 nodes of TP-Link Deco M4.

You have done a good move by going to Asus RT-AX89X. So yes I tend to think it makes sense to go with a 4*4 node in case you need an extra node.

 

[chiu2000]

All in all you have to test by yourself. I am not an expert in this area and further discussions may confuse you rather than help you.

One lesson I learned (through the past 5 years of getting different routers) is to buy the better router (more expensive) you can afford. For example my Asus RT-AX86U and RT-AX82U perform much better than cheaper routers like Huawei AX3 Quad Core version and 4 nodes of TP-Link Deco M4.

You have done a good move by going to Asus RT-AX89X. So yes I tend to think it makes sense to go with a 4*4 node in case you need an extra node.

Rather the main lesson i learn is to wire up as many devices as possible to free up the WiFi bandwidth.