WIFI Mesh VS AP

xiaofan

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Rather the main lesson i learn is to wire up as many devices as possible to free up the WiFi bandwidth.

Ah yes, that is for sure the best investment to do. Anyway he has already done that. And that is also a given for new BTO flats and new condo units.

The next best investment is to get a good wireless router and he has done that too.

On the other hand, I will keep my way of doing things -- not to wire up my rooms (old HDB flat) and keep using wireless. No issues so far with Asus RT-AX86U (or OpenWRT/pfSense + RT-AX82U) for my use cases. Next upgrade (not any time soon) will be using OpenWRT/pfSsense wired router plus WiFi 7 AP with 2.5G WAN port.

But there may be a limit of what WiFi can do when 10Gbps plans become the norm. Then I will probably plan to wire the home at that time (maybe 5 years later??).
 
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ss2000

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Ah yes, that is for sure the best investment to do. Anyway he has already done that. And that is also a given for new BTO flats and new condo units.

The next best investment is to get a good wireless router and he has done that too.

On the other hand, I will keep my way of doing things -- not to wire up my rooms (old HDB flat) and keep using wireless. No issues so far with Asus RT-AX86U (or OpenWRT/pfSense + RT-AX82U) for my use cases. Next upgrade (not any time soon) will be using OpenWRT/pfSsense wired router plus WiFi 7 AP with 2.5G WAN port.

But there may be a limit of what WiFi can do when 10Gbps plans become the norm. Then I will probably plan to wire the home at that time (maybe 5 years later??).

I’m looking forward to testing the AX router. My first upgrade from AC to AX, from non-mesh to mesh, from non-handoff to handoff.

But not MIMO though. My current Linksys AC2600 EA8100 is actually a 4x4 MU-MIMO router. By right I should get 866 Mbps (80 MHz, MCS Index 9) on my 2x2 iPhone 13 or my MacBook. Speed test are around 450 Mbps sustained speed which seems correct after accounting for MAC overheads (30% off the theoretical max PHY speed). But Linksys OS does not have any settings for MIMO so I also don’t know what’s going on.

But with Asus, I will be able to test these few things. So lots of new things to experience.
 

ss2000

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I must say I'm a bit disappointed with the Asus RT-AX89X. My expectations were high after reading so much about it. Disappointed with 2 things: speed in the MBR after closing the study room door and the MBR door, and when using with Surfshark VPN. I used my MSI gaming laptop for the test. I did both wired LAN and Wi-FI connection.

Speedtest 20231118 Asus RT-AX89X LAN, Surfshark VPN OFF: 943/940 Mbps
https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img922/9995/qN5svw.png

Speedtest 20231118 Asus RT-AX89X LAN, Surfshark VPN ON AV ON: 358/9 Mbps
https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img923/5374/ludKBe.png

Speedtest 20231118 Asus RT-AX89X LAN, Surfshark VPN ON AV OFF: 400/8 Mbps
https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img922/5822/1oYndp.png

Comparing the above with my old Linksys AC2600 router, same testing conditions, with VPN ON AV ON: 306/314 Mbps
https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img924/654/Gsh1oL.png

On Wi-Fi it's terrible without mesh, the reading is like 16/2 Mbps. Goodness. I don't know how that guy can get a strong signal from downstairs his EA house.

I definitely need the nodes in the room and I gotta use it without Surshark VPN on for critical missions. Terrible.

In the MBR with doors closed, the 5 GHZ band registers -88 dBm while the 2.4 GHz registers -68 dBm. In the Asus roaming assistant settings, both bands are set to release the client when it is -70 dBm.

Previously, when I was using the Linksys AC2600, the RSSI is about the same as now (-88 dBm) but the phone will still cling on to the living room router. So the wifi still has one bar on the phone.

Well, at least now, with Asus roaming settings, and at -88 dBm, at least the phone does not cling on to the AX89X router but it also won’t connect to the 2.5 GHz. I suppose at -68 dBm, the router thinks the signal is too weak to connect the client. So I’m using 4G in the MB

I won’t be able to work from the MBR with my laptops until I fox a mesh node there. Or use LAN in the MBR.

I'll play around more with the Asus settings. Perhaps turn off the Trend Micro and AIProtection features. Maybe it might improve. Will try again. First need to go and get the mesh nodes.
 
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xiaofan

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I must say I'm a bit disappointed with the Asus RT-AX89X. My expectations were high after reading so much about it. Disappointed with 2 things: speed in the MBR after closing the study room door and the MBR door, and when using with Surfshark VPN. I used my MSI gaming laptop for the test. I did both wired LAN and Wi-FI connection.

No idea about Surfshark VPN. In general, it is not a very good idea to use VPNs on the router as the router CPU is not strong enough. And it could be the Surfshark server is the limiting factor and not the router (Surfshark seems to be a low performance VPN and the major benefit is just the cheap price).

But for wireless, you may want to check your placement. Placement plays a big part. For example, it is better to put the router in a central (your router is not really in a central place) and high place without blocking. It should not be placed in a cupboard (worse is with glass door).

And if you have thick walls or things between the room and the router, then it is also tough for a single router to provide good 5GHz coverage. In any case, you have the LAN port in the rooms so you will have the option to add a mesh node.

+++++++++++++++++
No matter how "powerful" the home wireless router is, the TX power is regulated by the government (IMDA). More expensive and better designed router will have better ranges (eg:with better design of antenna), but there will be a limit what they can do without breaking the TX power limit. And often the client is usually the main limitation and not the router.
https://www.imda.gov.sg/-/media/imd...unication-standards/radio-comms/imdatssrd.pdf
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_WLAN_channels

2.4000 – 2.4835 GHz ≤ 200 mW (e.i.r.p.) -->23dBm (2.4GHz band, CH1 ... CH13)

5.150 – 5.350 GHz > 100 mW (e.i.r.p.) ≤ 200 mW (e.i.r.p.) --> 20...23dBm (CH32...CH48, non-DFS; CH52...68, DFS+TPC)
5.150 – 5.350 GHz ≤ 100 mW (e.i.r.p.) --> 20dBm (CH32...CH48, non-DFS; CH52...68, DFS)

5.470 – 5.725 GHz ≤ 1000 mW (e.i.r.p.) --> 30dBm (CH96...CH144, DFS+TPC)

5.725 – 5.850 GHz ≤ 1000 mW (e.i.r.p.) --> 30dBm (CH149...CH165, DFS+TPC)

5.945 – 6.425 GHz ≤ 250mW (e.i.r.p) --> 24dBm (6GHz band, CH1...CH93)
 

xiaofan

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Test results from @limcc using RT-AX86U for reference (Post 3026 and Post and 3027) to show it is quite possible to cover a typical 4-room/5-room HDB flat using single router. In the same page, there are also reports of ZenWiFi Pro ET12 with 5GHz/6GHz comparison from another user.

Each flat is not the same and sometimes it is not possible to place the main router in an ideal central location of the flat. In that case, those with LAN ports in the rooms will be much easier to add an AP to compensate. Those without LAN ports in the rooms may have to go with more expensive triband solution if they do not like to lay Ethernet cables.

https://forums.hardwarezone.com.sg/...400-rt-ax5400-and-tuf-ax4200.6315347/page-152
 

ss2000

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Test results from @limcc using RT-AX86U for reference (Post 3026 and Post and 3027) to show it is quite possible to cover a typical 4-room/5-room HDB flat using single router. In the same page, there are also reports of ZenWiFi Pro ET12 with 5GHz/6GHz comparison from another user.

Each flat is not the same and sometimes it is not possible to place the main router in an ideal central location of the flat. In that case, those with LAN ports in the rooms will be much easier to add an AP to compensate. Those without LAN ports in the rooms may have to go with more expensive triband solution if they do not like to lay Ethernet cables.

https://forums.hardwarezone.com.sg/...400-rt-ax5400-and-tuf-ax4200.6315347/page-152
I envy them. I think it may because of the kind of walls I have. Mine is an old flat, built about 30 years ago. It’s a EA, the old type of EA, so a bit bigger and probably tougher walls.

I can’t move the main router because of the design of the house. It would be ideal to place it just outside the study room which would be the center of the house but just not practical for me because I don’t have any fixture at the spot to put the router.

Anyway I spent the whole day playing with the Asus settings: updating the firmware, turning AiProtection on and off and testing speed, turning UPNP on and off and testing speed, turning remote access on and off, turning QoS on and off, turning VPN (WireGuard) on and off, but it didn’t help the speed, nor did it help with the range to the MBR.

Actually each time I make a change in setting, it takes a while, nearly 2 minutes to take effect. All the changes add up, so it took a long time fiddling with all the settings. And when I did firmware upgrade or change from Smart Connect to disabling it, it can take 6-8 minutes. Pengsan 🤦🏻‍♂️. Honestly my old Linksys AC2600 was faster when I made changes.

But the good thing is that I managed to reconnect my Synology NAS. Had to change the IP address but was relieved that it connected. And also reconnected all my Starhub TVs.

So no choice, I went out and got a RT-AX57 and made it a mesh node in the MBR. Got it for $79 at Cash Converter. Updated the firmware. And got it wired backhaul to the AX89X.

I then tried to use Smart Connect and set both the 2.4/5GHz bands to the same SSID and let the router does the band steering. Was hoping I could get the seamless roaming handoff I wanted.

But I had a hard time getting Smart Connect to work. The connection keeps dropping! Then I disabled Smart Connect and set up separate SSIDs for the 2 bands. Still got problem! The 2.4GHz band will connect and stay connected but the 5GHz band will not!!!! 🤬 Kept dropping off.

Then I tried to change the password to see if it helps. Good grief. After changing the password back and forth, even copying it to paste into the iPhone WiFi connection, I kept getting a new error that the password is wrong!! Very xian already. 😫

Finally, I think I found the problem. Can’t be sure it is the real cause but the solution worked. I don’t know why though. It’s the 160 MHz bandwidth under the 5GHz band. When I disabled this 160MHz bandwidth, voila!, all the stars finally aligned. I got the Smart Connect to work, got the seamless roaming to work, and no more dropping connection.

The speed - with the AX57 node installed - was decent. The speed test in the Asus app gave me readings around 970 Mbps whereas the standalone Ookla Speedtest app gave me only 300-400 Mbps. Don’t know why.

Anyway, if I’m using the laptop in the bedrooms, I will use LAN and not WiFi.

Tomorrow I will get another two more AX57 and fix up the other two rooms.

This is the end of my quest to fix up a Asus mesh in my EA home. Quite a journey. I learned a lot about MIMO, routers, nodes, antennas etc. in the process. Quite useful.

And thanks to everyone here for your advice and help, especially @xiaofan! Much appreciated!
 

ss2000

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If you only have iphone as 5GHz client, you should not enable 160MHz channel bandwidth because iphones do not support it, despite being WiFi6/E devices. Only the latest 15 models finally add the feature.

https://www.gizmoweek.com/iphone-15-pro-wifi-connectivity-issues/
https://support.apple.com/en-sg/guide/deployment/dep268652e6c/web

BTW, my flat was built in 1991~1993, exactly 30 years old.
So I was right about the 160 MHz channel width. 😄 I had to learn this through a long trial and error. My MSI laptop supports 160 MHz but never mind.
 

chiu2000

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So I was right about the 160 MHz channel width. 😄 I had to learn this through a long trial and error. My MSI laptop supports 160 MHz but never mind.
And also only 1 band of the 160MHz channel width is usable in Singapore, and half of that is already flooded with devices since 802.11n era.

Might as well stick to quieter 80MHz channel width
 

ss2000

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And also only 1 band of the 160MHz channel width is usable in Singapore, and half of that is already flooded with devices since 802.11n era.

Might as well stick to quieter 80MHz channel width
Yup. I set the 2.4GHz to use 40MHz and the 5GHz to use 80MHz. Added two RX57 nodes and all seem to be working fine. Handoff also seem to be working fine. So my objectives have been achieved.

My Asus mesh network
https://imageshack.com/i/pnDRCa9Xj

I use the Apple AirPort app to scan the RSSI in different parts of the house and all seems well. The highest RSSI I got was -25 dBm which is fantastic.

Airport app RSSI reading: -31, -37dBm
https://imageshack.com/i/poUE4Udaj

But one mystery remains. I did speed test using the Asus router app and then the Ookla Speed Test app and I get very different readings. Yet they are both Ookla.

Speed test with Asus router app
940 / 939 Mbps
https://imageshack.com/i/pmFsP3kBp

Speed test with Ookla app
279 / 245 Mbps
https://imageshack.com/i/pn5nHAX7p

The difference is too significant to be explained by the use of different apps.

The Asus app readings look like what I came get with Starhub 1Gbps fibre plan, that is, the Asus app seems to be measuring the speed at the ONT point.

The Ookla app, on the other hand, seems to be measuring the speed at my iPhone end.

So, no matter where I am in the house and no matter which wireless device I am using to run the speed test, I always get above 950 Mbps on the Asus app speed test, but I get different speeds on the Ookla app, sometimes 300-400 Mbps, sometimes 200-300 Mbps.

The Ookla app speed test seems more like the kind of speed test we want, it reflects the actual speeds at run wireless client end.

The Asus app speed test is a bit misleading and pointless since it’s always testing the ONT speed which will consistently be around 950 Mbps for Starhub’s 1Gbps fibre plan. So what’s the point?
 

xiaofan

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Yup. I set the 2.4GHz to use 40MHz and the 5GHz to use 80MHz. Added two RX57 nodes and all seem to be working fine. Handoff also seem to be working fine. So my objectives have been achieved.

My Asus mesh network
https://imageshack.com/i/pnDRCa9Xj

I use the Apple AirPort app to scan the RSSI in different parts of the house and all seems well. The highest RSSI I got was -25 dBm which is fantastic.

Airport app RSSI reading: -31, -37dBm
https://imageshack.com/i/poUE4Udaj

But one mystery remains. I did speed test using the Asus router app and then the Ookla Speed Test app and I get very different readings. Yet they are both Ookla.

Speed test with Asus router app
940 / 939 Mbps
https://imageshack.com/i/pmFsP3kBp

Speed test with Ookla app
279 / 245 Mbps
https://imageshack.com/i/pn5nHAX7p

The difference is too significant to be explained by the use of different apps.

The Asus app readings look like what I came get with Starhub 1Gbps fibre plan, that is, the Asus app seems to be measuring the speed at the ONT point.

The Ookla app, on the other hand, seems to be measuring the speed at my iPhone end.

So, no matter where I am in the house and no matter which wireless device I am using to run the speed test, I always get above 950 Mbps on the Asus app speed test, but I get different speeds on the Ookla app, sometimes 300-400 Mbps, sometimes 200-300 Mbps.

The Ookla app speed test seems more like the kind of speed test we want, it reflects the actual speeds at run wireless client end.

The Asus app speed test is a bit misleading and pointless since it’s always testing the ONT speed which will consistently be around 950 Mbps for Starhub’s 1Gbps fibre plan. So what’s the point?
From my Asus RT-AX86U: it clearly says the built-in Ookla Internet Speed test is from router to the internet, not from your device to the internet. Your Ookla SpeedTest app on your iPhone, on the other hand, test the internet speed from your iPhone (wireless speed).

The good thing is that your RT-AX89X has a faster CPU (Qualcomm IPQ8074, Arm Cortex A53 quad-core 64bit CPU, 2.2GHz) so it can get 940Mbps/939Mbps. For my RT-AX86U, the download speed is low due to the slower CPU (Braodcom BCM4908, Arm Cortex A53 quad-core 64bit CPU, 1.8GHz). My RT-AX82U will be even slower since the CPU (Broadcom BCM6750, Arm Cortex A7 tri-core 32bit CPU, 1.5GHz) is very weak. If you run the test from your RT-AX57 (Broadcom BCM6756, Arm Cortex A7 quad-core 32bit CPU, 1.7GHz) you will get slower speed as well. Take note Arm Cortex A7 32bit core is much slower than the Cortex A53 64bit core.

When you troubleshoot, you want to know the wired speed is normal first before troubleshoot wireless speed. Usually you use a computer to carry out the test. In your case, you can use the RT-AX89X router's built-in speedtest can replace that test.

Internet Speed
This service is provided by Ookla®. It detects the download and upload speed from your router to the Internet. This test takes approximately one minute to complete. By using this service, you agree to Ookla’s Privacy Policy.

oGykfs6.png


So for me I will use a mini-PC to carry out the test.
Code:
root@pve8n100:~# ./speedtest

   Speedtest by Ookla

      Server: Singtel - Singapore (id: 13623)
         ISP: Singtel Fibre
Idle Latency:     2.15 ms   (jitter: 0.16ms, low: 2.03ms, high: 2.32ms)
    Download:   946.16 Mbps (data used: 474.0 MB)                                                   
                  3.44 ms   (jitter: 0.24ms, low: 2.79ms, high: 4.47ms)
      Upload:   946.63 Mbps (data used: 1.1 GB)                                                   
                  5.55 ms   (jitter: 0.55ms, low: 4.19ms, high: 16.13ms)
 Packet Loss:     0.0%
  Result URL: https://www.speedtest.net/result/c/d3cc2fef-697b-43ad-ad21-705d7dfa860b

d3cc2fef-697b-43ad-ad21-705d7dfa860b.png
 
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chiu2000

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Yup. I set the 2.4GHz to use 40MHz and the 5GHz to use 80MHz. Added two RX57 nodes and all seem to be working fine. Handoff also seem to be working fine. So my objectives have been achieved.

My Asus mesh network
https://imageshack.com/i/pnDRCa9Xj

I use the Apple AirPort app to scan the RSSI in different parts of the house and all seems well. The highest RSSI I got was -25 dBm which is fantastic.

Airport app RSSI reading: -31, -37dBm
https://imageshack.com/i/poUE4Udaj

But one mystery remains. I did speed test using the Asus router app and then the Ookla Speed Test app and I get very different readings. Yet they are both Ookla.

Speed test with Asus router app
940 / 939 Mbps
https://imageshack.com/i/pmFsP3kBp

Speed test with Ookla app
279 / 245 Mbps
https://imageshack.com/i/pn5nHAX7p

The difference is too significant to be explained by the use of different apps.

The Asus app readings look like what I came get with Starhub 1Gbps fibre plan, that is, the Asus app seems to be measuring the speed at the ONT point.

The Ookla app, on the other hand, seems to be measuring the speed at my iPhone end.

So, no matter where I am in the house and no matter which wireless device I am using to run the speed test, I always get above 950 Mbps on the Asus app speed test, but I get different speeds on the Ookla app, sometimes 300-400 Mbps, sometimes 200-300 Mbps.

The Ookla app speed test seems more like the kind of speed test we want, it reflects the actual speeds at run wireless client end.

The Asus app speed test is a bit misleading and pointless since it’s always testing the ONT speed which will consistently be around 950 Mbps for Starhub’s 1Gbps fibre plan. So what’s the point?
Just keep to 20MHz on 2.4GHz, it is so noisy and so much interference that there's no point using a wider channel width.
 

ss2000

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From my Asus RT-AX86U: it clearly says the built-in Ookla Internet Speed test is from router to the internet, not from your device to the internet. Your Ookla SpeedTest app on your iPhone, on the other hand, test the internet speed from your iPhone (wireless speed).

The good thing is that your RT-AX89X has a faster CPU (Qualcomm IPQ8074, Arm Cortex A53 quad-core 64bit CPU, 2.2GHz) so it can get 940Mbps/939Mbps. For my RT-AX86U, the download speed is low due to the slower CPU (Braodcom BCM4908, Arm Cortex A53 quad-core 64bit CPU, 1.8GHz). My RT-AX82U will be even slower since the CPU (Broadcom BCM6750, Arm Cortex A7 tri-core 32bit CPU, 1.5GHz) is very weak. If you run the test from your RT-AX57 (Broadcom BCM6756, Arm Cortex A7 quad-core 32bit CPU, 1.7GHz) you will get slower speed as well. Take note Arm Cortex A7 32bit core is much slower than the Cortex A53 64bit core.

When you troubleshoot, you want to know the wired speed is normal first before troubleshoot wireless speed. Usually you use a computer to carry out the test. In your case, you can use the RT-AX89X router's built-in speedtest can replace that test.

Internet Speed
This service is provided by Ookla®. It detects the download and upload speed from your router to the Internet. This test takes approximately one minute to complete. By using this service, you agree to Ookla’s Privacy Policy.

oGykfs6.png


So for me I will use a mini-PC to carry out the test.
Code:
root@pve8n100:~# ./speedtest

   Speedtest by Ookla

      Server: Singtel - Singapore (id: 13623)
         ISP: Singtel Fibre
Idle Latency:     2.15 ms   (jitter: 0.16ms, low: 2.03ms, high: 2.32ms)
    Download:   946.16 Mbps (data used: 474.0 MB)                                                 
                  3.44 ms   (jitter: 0.24ms, low: 2.79ms, high: 4.47ms)
      Upload:   946.63 Mbps (data used: 1.1 GB)                                                 
                  5.55 ms   (jitter: 0.55ms, low: 4.19ms, high: 16.13ms)
 Packet Loss:     0.0%
  Result URL: https://www.speedtest.net/result/c/d3cc2fef-697b-43ad-ad21-705d7dfa860b

d3cc2fef-697b-43ad-ad21-705d7dfa860b.png
Ah so I’m right about the speed tests.

Upgrading from AC to AX like not very much better in terms of speed. I know the speed is limited by my wireless device. Even then, based on the MCS table, my iPhone 2x2 MIMO should have:
256-QAM
AC 780 Mbps
AX 961 Mbps
64-QAM
AC 585 Mbps
AX 721 Mbps

Even after accounting for MAC overheads, should get around 450-500 Mbps even at 64-QAM for AX but the speed test looks more like it’s running at AC speed.

The real significant improvement for me was the handoff from the mesh system.
 

xiaofan

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Ah so I’m right about the speed tests.

Upgrading from AC to AX like not very much better in terms of speed. I know the speed is limited by my wireless device. Even then, based on the MCS table, my iPhone 2x2 MIMO should have:
256-QAM
AC 780 Mbps
AX 961 Mbps
64-QAM
AC 585 Mbps
AX 721 Mbps

Even after accounting for MAC overheads, should get around 450-500 Mbps even at 64-QAM for AX but the speed test looks more like it’s running at AC speed.

The real significant improvement for me was the handoff from the mesh system.

If you test close to the main RT-AX89X router, you should be able to get faster speed. Make sure your are using Ethernet backhaul and not wireless backhaul.

Example test results using my Asus RT-AX86U router, with 80MHz channel bandwidth, close range test (about 1m away from router).

Xiaomi Poco X4 GT:
9710595010.png


iPhone 14:
5864743999.png
 

ss2000

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If you test close to the main RT-AX89X router, you should be able to get faster speed. Make sure your are using Ethernet backhaul and not wireless backhaul.

Example test results using my Asus RT-AX86U router, with 80MHz channel bandwidth, close range test (about 1m away from router).

Xiaomi Poco X4 GT:
9710595010.png


iPhone 14:
5864743999.png
Ok I try the speed test again.

I originally left the 2.4Ghz at auto then I found that my devices keep connecting at 20MHz which has a slower speed. So I kept it at 40Mhz. So far still ok.

I haven’t tried my Brother printer yet. I hope it still works on wireless.
 

xiaofan

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This is a good advice. 2.4GHz is too congested in Singapore.

The following is from my Asus RT-AX82U.

NxscpnH.png

I have another RT-AX86U and I disable 2.4GHz bands (that is why it shows control channel 0) and only use 5GHz bands. I am lucky that I can get 160MHz channel bandwidth working with CH60 (DFS channel) at close range (3 to 5 meter) with my two Windows laptops with Intel AX200/AX201 wireless adapter. YMMV.

For those who live near to the airport, DFS channels may not work well. And 160MHz channel bandwidth will not work either if you have stronger interferences from the neighbours. Hopefully things may get better on the 6GHz bands which have less penetration power compared to the 5GHz bands.

JhiFEa0.png


Wikipedia WiFi Frequency bands for reference:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_WLAN_channels

Asus FAQs
https://www.asus.com/support/FAQ/1045936/
https://www.asus.com/support/FAQ/1011431/
 
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